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-   -   Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=266649)

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2019 07:36 AM

Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF
 
Inspired by a recent thread.
1. Maris only.
2. Belle only.
3. Both.
4. Neither.

ullmandds 03-08-2019 07:40 AM

I said belle only...not sure if roger deserves entry basically for ď61?Ē Albert was consistently one of the most feared hitters for a while and put up solid numbers...despite being a d-bag...but thats never mattered for entry to a hall.

packs 03-08-2019 07:58 AM

I would put Roger in for his contributions to baseball over his career. Hitting those 61 homers was an incredible achievement.

Yastrzemski Sports 03-08-2019 08:16 AM

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who donít know baseball know his name. Heís a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

rats60 03-08-2019 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports (Post 1860866)
Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who donít know baseball know his name. Heís a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

36GoudeyMan 03-08-2019 08:55 AM

An Alternative?
 
Could the HOF maybe have a wing for "Hall of Fame Achievements"? Something to honor players who did something(s) great but did not have an otherwise HOF-worthy career?

Maris' 61 homers comes to mind. Vander Meer's back-to-back No Hitters might qualify.

Dunno, just a thought....

buymycards 03-08-2019 09:01 AM

Really?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1860870)
ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

Are you nuts? Even in Wisconsin, back in 1961 we had newspapers, magazines, and radio's.

steve B 03-08-2019 09:02 AM

I suppose it depends on whether it's a hall of fame, or a hall of stats. Both often go together, but sometimes they diverge.

If it's a hall of fame, maybe both should be in. If it's a hall of stats, maybe not. As it is, it's a hall of stats over time, with a popularity poll at the end.

packs 03-08-2019 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1860870)
ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.


Are you serious? I don't understand how anyone who was alive in 1998 can possibly say something like that. Maris was the most famous name in all of sports during the most famous chase in all of sports at a time when baseball was at it's inflated height. I think you would have been hard pressed to find a person in the country who didn't know his name.

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2019 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1860880)
Are you serious? I don't understand how anyone who was alive in 1998 can possibly say something like that. Maris was the most famous name in all of sports during the most famous chase in all of sports at a time when baseball was at it's inflated height. I think you would have been hard pressed to find a person in the country who didn't know his name.

He is talking about NOW, not then.

Jim65 03-08-2019 09:23 AM

I voted neither because neither deserves to be in. Maris had 3 good years which makes him a no. Belle was the far superior hitter but his rep and short career keep him out.

TUM301 03-08-2019 09:24 AM

My 2 cents, Maris`s argument reminds me somewhat of the Joe Namath one. Both players had some great years but overall, their career numbers didn`t make them automatic. However, both players had single historical moments that transcended their respective sports. Maris for historical "61" season and of course Joe and his Jets forever changing the NFL/AFL landscape defeating the Colts in the Super Bowl. For me, they are both Hall Of Fame Locks !

darwinbulldog 03-08-2019 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1860870)
ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

I daresay most people in New York don't know who he is. Clearly most people everywhere do not. The median age is like 27, and even in the U.S., which apart from Canada, is probably about the only country where more than 1% of people would know the name, < 20% of the people are old enough to remember the '61 season.

I have a feeling that most people know who Sam Harris is, given how frequently he's mentioned within my social group, but I also know that feeling is stupid and comes from a false consensus bias and that in reality there's no way even 10% of people know who he is. Baseball fans will feel the same about Roger Maris, Hank Greenberg, et al., but again, no way even 10% of people know who these guys are. In fact, no way even 10% of people know who Walter Johnson was, and he was the greatest pitcher in MLB history.

There are several times as many people who don't know who Donald Trump is (and he's likely the most famous person in the world at the moment) as who do know who Roger Maris was.

Baseball Bob 03-08-2019 09:30 AM

My recollection of Albert belle was that he was a foul-tempered, cantankerous and lazy baseball player who wasted a lot of his talent. The HOF does not usually take in characters like that.....

packs 03-08-2019 09:40 AM

Why do people keep bringing up 1961 as a baseline for knowing who Maris is? Did everyone forget McGwire and Sosa's chase? Who were they chasing? How about Bonds' pursuit in 2001? That was only 18 years ago.

h2oya311 03-08-2019 09:45 AM

When I think of Albert Belle, I think of this play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV3fNK31HD4

By the way, I voted "no" for both, although some of the arguments for inclusion of Maris are warranted. Interestingly, just because someone doesn't make the HOF doesn't mean that they aren't a major part of the HOF (Cooperstown). There's all sorts of equipment and other references to non-HOFers at Cooperstown, like Maris and Rose. I don't recall seeing any Joey Belle "stuff" there at Cooperstown. Feared, yes (see video). HOF, not so much. I'd stick Dale Murphy in the Hall well before Joey "Albert" Belle.

Jason19th 03-08-2019 09:46 AM

Neither are even close. Maris is not a hall of famer in any regard. He was a quiet decent and hardworking man who was elevated to something he was not because of two good seasons. Look at his numbers, he hit 260 with 1325 hits. He did not have a career where he was somehow blocked by circumstances. He was a regular when he was 22 and he retired at 33 after hitting around 250 with less then 13 homer per year for his last 4 years. If you look at his similarity scores per age he was Reggie Jackson for three years, but in his other years he was Larry Hisle, Pete incavigila, Jessie Barfield and Coby Rasmus.

There are a ton a guys who had two great years- Rubin Sierra, Jose Cansevo, George foster, dale murphy, Mickey Vernon, al Rosen, Denny McClain, etc who have career numbers as good as or better then Maris who are not even talked about for the hall

He should be applauded for 61 but not be elevated to the hall

MooseDog 03-08-2019 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B (Post 1860879)
I suppose it depends on whether it's a hall of fame, or a hall of stats. Both often go together, but sometimes they diverge.

This ^^^^^^^^

Seems we're moving more towards a Hall of (Advanced) Stats.

jchcollins 03-08-2019 10:10 AM

Belle to me is borderline with a short career. Maris is such a pull either way - clearly (along with Gil Hodges) one of the single most popular players who has not been enshrined yet. He did win 2 MVP's, but the arguments for the short peak are valid. I do buy into some of the "did a lot for baseball" arguments. Yes, the vote is as a player, but what are some of those long-forgotten execs enshrined for if not for "what they did for the game"? As a kid even in the 1980's when I first started collecting cards, Maris was extremely well known - way before the summer of '98 drama. Yes, it's for one event - but that one event was the single most cherished record in the entire history of the game. One that has since been tarnished I might add by all the things that have since come out about McGwire and Bonds. I think there are exceptions, and really it would not bother me if Roger gets elected one day.

clydepepper 03-08-2019 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65 (Post 1860884)
I voted neither because neither deserves to be in. Maris had 3 good years which makes him a no. Belle was the far superior hitter but his rep and short career keep him out.

+1 - exactly as I see it.

rats60 03-08-2019 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buymycards (Post 1860878)
Are you nuts? Even in Wisconsin, back in 1961 we had newspapers, magazines, and radio's.

Did you even bother to read what I wrote? If someone wasn't alive in 1961 or old enough to read the paper or remember, how would they know what it was like? In our neighborhood Maris cards were commons, sorry.

ctownboy 03-08-2019 11:51 AM

IF Roger Maris had played for a bad team in 1961 and NOT the Yankees would we even be HAVING this discussion??

Maris is NOT a Hall of Famer and the only reason for his fame is because he was a Yankee.

David

packs 03-08-2019 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctownboy (Post 1860933)
IF Roger Maris had played for a bad team in 1961 and NOT the Yankees would we even be HAVING this discussion??

Maris is NOT a Hall of Famer and the only reason for his fame is because he was a Yankee.

David

If I remember correctly, neither Hank Aaron, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa or Barry Bonds were Yankees yet they are all remembered for the same thing: hitting a magic number of home runs.

Who else did that? I think a guy named Roger Maris.

Yastrzemski Sports 03-08-2019 12:07 PM

So if he played for the Tigers and led the team to 3 straight ws, winning back to back mvps and hit 61 hr breaking Babeís record... yes we would.
I also say that Murphy belongs... who was the best player in baseball in the early 80s with back to back mvps for a terrible team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctownboy (Post 1860933)
IF Roger Maris had played for a bad team in 1961 and NOT the Yankees would we even be HAVING this discussion??

Maris is NOT a Hall of Famer and the only reason for his fame is because he was a Yankee.

David


Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2019 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1860939)
If I remember correctly, neither Hank Aaron, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa or Barry Bonds were Yankees yet they are all remembered for the same thing: hitting a magic number of home runs.

Who else did that? I think a guy named Roger Maris.

I kinda doubt he hits 61 without that guy who hit 4th behind him -- now what was his name -- Mickey something.

bbcard1 03-08-2019 12:15 PM

Here's the rub, IMO. Someone like Baines gets in and everyone yells "Compiler!" Guys who have a few great seasons are the other side of that coin, but seldom get recognized...maybe a few deadball guys like Chesboro or Walsh, but no one recently. I don't think it matters all that much, but I could live with both or neither, however, I would argue that Maris (and Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose) is a de facto Hall of Fame because he is more well-known than the vast majority of outfielders in the hall.

Moonlight Graham 03-08-2019 12:15 PM

Albert Belle + Steroids + Corked Bat = No HOF

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2019 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlight Graham (Post 1860946)
Albert Belle + Steroids + Corked Bat = No HOF

I did not think Belle was linked with steroids.

jhs5120 03-08-2019 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1860949)
I did not think Belle was linked with steroids.

Complete speculation: notorious for unprovoked crazy outbursts? Prominent slugger in the mid-late 1990ís? Career cut short by injury? Caught cheating on several occasions?

I mean...

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2019 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h2oya311 (Post 1860892)
When I think of Albert Belle, I think of this play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV3fNK31HD4

By the way, I voted "no" for both, although some of the arguments for inclusion of Maris are warranted. Interestingly, just because someone doesn't make the HOF doesn't mean that they aren't a major part of the HOF (Cooperstown). There's all sorts of equipment and other references to non-HOFers at Cooperstown, like Maris and Rose. I don't recall seeing any Joey Belle "stuff" there at Cooperstown. Feared, yes (see video). HOF, not so much. I'd stick Dale Murphy in the Hall well before Joey "Albert" Belle.

Where the hell were Vina's teammates on that play, I mean even if that's a legitimate albeit very hard hit, you can't just let that be.

HOF Auto Rookies 03-08-2019 01:56 PM

No for both

drcy 03-08-2019 02:01 PM

No to either, but Belle is more deserving, and it wouldn't offend by baseball senses if Belle was elected. In his prime, Belle had a Hall of Fame bat on the order of Jimmy Foxx or Lou Gehrig-- though had much publicized baggage including being a Terrell Owens-eque teammate.

rats60 03-08-2019 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1860943)
I kinda doubt he hits 61 without that guy who hit 4th behind him -- now what was his name -- Mickey something.

There it is. What would Maris' numbers look like without Mantle protecting him? Outside of those 2-3 years they weren't very good and even those 3 years he hit .283 (career high), .269, .256. His best career numbers are Slugging%-223rd all time and OPS+ 220th all time.

rats60 03-08-2019 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1860949)
I did not think Belle was linked with steroids.

One of his teammates said that all his bats were corked.

packs 03-08-2019 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1860981)
There it is. What would Maris' numbers look like without Mantle protecting him? Outside of those 2-3 years they weren't very good and even those 3 years he hit .283 (career high), .269, .256. His best career numbers are Slugging%-223rd all time and OPS+ 220th all time.

I don't remember anyone else in front of Mantle hitting 61 homers. Can you point some people out who accomplished that seemingly easy feat?

HOF Auto Rookies 03-08-2019 02:52 PM

Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1860982)
One of his teammates said that all his bats were corked.


That's crazy!

I believe Sports Science, or a show along those lines debunking the corked bat. Was a very interesting episode.

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2019 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1860985)
I don't remember anyone else in front of Mantle hitting 61 homers. Can you point some people out who accomplished that seemingly easy feat?

Mantle hit 3rd much of his career, no? In any event your point is a non sequitur, the question is did hitting in front of Mantle help Maris' HR totals and I think the answer is likely yes.

58pinson 03-08-2019 03:08 PM

A vote for Belle only. He's out in the cold simple because the sportswriters don't like him. Not that I blame them, he was a horse's ass.

On Roger, if he had stroked out at 59 I don't think we're having this poll. Nice player and I liked him alot, and that's coming from a lifetime Yankee hater.

rhettyeakley 03-08-2019 03:29 PM

I'm comfortable with neither being in but I think Belle is the more deserving of the two (even with the nostalgia factor going for Roger Maris). I wouldn't be overly oupset if Belle eventually gets in though.

Honestly, of the guys in that "limbo" state where they don't quite have the numbers to justify inclusion I'd rather see a Dale Murphy or someone like that get in before those two.

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2019 03:44 PM

I don't understand the votes in favor of Maris other than romanticism.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 18 (132), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 57 (461), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 89 (205), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 22 (679), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS
Right Field (55th):
38.2 career WAR / 32.3 7yr-peak WAR / 35.2 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 26):
71.4 career WAR / 42.1 7yr-peak WAR / 56.8 JAWS

BearBailey 03-08-2019 03:51 PM

Both are no from me.

Mountaineer1999 03-08-2019 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1861012)
I don't understand the votes in favor of Maris other than romanticism.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 18 (132), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 57 (461), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 89 (205), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 22 (679), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS
Right Field (55th):
38.2 career WAR / 32.3 7yr-peak WAR / 35.2 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 26):
71.4 career WAR / 42.1 7yr-peak WAR / 56.8 JAWS

I had to look up Romanticism but I agree.

mantlefan 03-08-2019 07:13 PM

Roger
 
Roger for sure. I mean if you're voting Harold Baines in, not including Maris is a travesty. Toss out the Roid guys and he stands alone at 61 homers in a season. That has to mean something.

Jim65 03-08-2019 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mantlefan (Post 1861081)
Roger for sure. I mean if you're voting Harold Baines in, not including Maris is a travesty. Toss out the Roid guys and he stands alone at 61 homers in a season. That has to mean something.

Thats the biggest problem with undeserving players like Baines getting in the HOF, people use it to justify other undeserving players getting in.

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2019 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mantlefan (Post 1861081)
Roger for sure. I mean if you're voting Harold Baines in, not including Maris is a travesty. Toss out the Roid guys and he stands alone at 61 homers in a season. That has to mean something.

He stood alone for decades and never got even half the vote.

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2019 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65 (Post 1861084)
Thats the biggest problem with undeserving players like Baines getting in the HOF, people use it to justify other undeserving players getting in.

Yep. The slippery slope argument. But as a great judge said, Just because there's a slippery slope, you don't have to ski it to the bottom.

Mike D. 03-08-2019 08:23 PM

My understanding that the Hall has a guideline (not a rule) that says a players entire career should be considered, not a single game or season.

I don't feel either player belongs. Lots of more deserving players who had more career value without being Baines-style compilers (and agree we should never use a universally panned selection to justify other bad picks).

bnorth 03-08-2019 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies (Post 1860988)
That's crazy!

I believe Sports Science, or a show along those lines debunking the corked bat. Was a very interesting episode.

They proved that with a machine swinging the bat it did not matter if it was corked or not. Now if a real live person hits the ball farther with a corked bat is a different story. Athletes are strange people and if they believe it helps, crazily just the extra confidence it gives the player leads to a real increase in #'s.

To the original question. They both deserve to be in the HOF as much as I do, only with paid admission to look at the greats of the game.:)

tedzan 03-08-2019 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1861012)
I don't understand the votes in favor of Maris other than romanticism.

Then call me a "Roman-tic".....even though I'm a Greek :)

I'm probably one of the few here who are lucky to have seen Roger play (1957 - 1968). And you have had to see him play to appreciate his all-around performance.
Especially in 1961. Just like Mantle, Roger was a just a "country boy". The NY media was unreal that year to both of them. Mantle (after 10 years in NY) was able to
deal with the media. But to Roger, the media was unbearable.

Look, throwing out numbers (stats) does not really tell you the true story. And, given the fact that there are some already in the BB Hall Of Fame whose credentials
are less than Roger's......my vote is a resounding YES.

In 1965, Roger continued playing the game although he was suffering from a break in his hand that had been misdiagnosed. The best thing that happened to Roger
at that time in his career was being traded to the St Louis Cardinals.

And, if "numbers" are you game....check-out Roger's performance in the 1967 World Series !

That's it....I said my piece.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

familytoad 03-09-2019 12:03 AM

No
 
The writers and committees have had 50 years to elect Maris and never did.
That is very telling.
(We cannot elect him from Net54 either)

Players with great seasons or memorable achievements get their attention in the Hall already, they donít necessarily deserve a career award like the HOF election.

Belle isnít a HOFer either. He doesnít have much of an argument for his career numbers or fame factor. There is at least a couple dozen guys who have some argument, but not him.


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