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100backstroke 07-27-2017 07:50 PM

Pujols
 
I am an Angels fan. I want to like Pujols. But its tough and getting tougher. IMHO, his HOF status is now in jeopardy. Since he joined the Angels, he has been nowhere near HOF status, and its been a long time now. I can't remember such a player that was lights out for the first part of career, then horrible for so long. Yeah, yeah, he now has 600 HR, I know. But its all due to his St. Louis time (PED's?). Do you think he belongs in the Hall? Has he been a top standout all star caliber player since, like forever?

frankbmd 07-27-2017 07:56 PM

Ken Griffey Jr had a substantial decrease in his performance during the second decade of his career.

An All-star 11 of his first 12 years and then only twice in the last ten.

A good match for Pujols IMO to answer one of your questions.

cardsfan73 07-27-2017 08:01 PM

He was a Hall Of Famer before he left St. Louis. No Peds, his body was breaking down before he left St. Louis the biggest issue being his chronic plantar fasciitis issues.

Probably the reason you are having trouble liking him is that Arte Moreno paid waaaaay to much for what Pujols had done, not what he was going to do. Overpaid for Josh Hamilton too.

He has averaged right around 98 Rbi and just under 30 home runs per season since joining the Angels, I am not sure I would call him "horrible". Is he worth the money the Angels paid him? nope.. But I would love to have a 30 hr/90+rbi bat in my Cardinals line up right now!

I watch as many Angels games as I can on mlb.tv and I don't see an awful player, I see an aging vet who is winding down his career.

Scott

cardsfan73 07-27-2017 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd (Post 1684704)
Ken Griffey Jr had a substantial decrease in his performance during the second decade of his career.

An All-star 11 of his first 12 years and then only twice in the last ten.

A good match for Pujols IMO to answer one of your questions.


Griffey is a great example and I am sure there are a lot more.

While not a Hall Of Famer, Dale Murphy was a great hitter and his numbers dropped dramatically and fast.

Baseball referance has a Most Similar by Ages stat and they list Frank Robinson & Hank Aaron as the two comps to Pujols for age 34,35 & 36 season.

And as far as Hall Of Fame goes the only 1st Baseman ranked higher than Albert in WAR is Lou Gehrig. That puts Albert ahead of Jimmie Foxx, Cap Anson, Jeff Bagwell, Johny Mize, Frank Thomas, Willie McCovey, Eddie Murray, Hank Greenberg, Tony Perez & Orlando Cepeda and those guys are all in the Hall.. So yeah, I think it's safe to assume Albert is a Hall Of Famer!

Peter_Spaeth 07-27-2017 08:52 PM

How can anyone even think of questioning his credentials? 600 HR and close to 3000 hits and he isn't done. First ballot lock. And his so called down years in LA have included THREE 100 RBI seasons and 40-31-30 HR seasons.

cardsfan73 07-27-2017 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1684730)
How can anyone even think of questioning his credentials? 600 HR and close to 3000 hits and he isn't done. First ballot lock. And his so called down years in LA have included THREE 100 RBI seasons and 40-31-30 HR seasons.

I know right? I guess to some people that is horrible!

Peter_Spaeth 07-27-2017 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsfan73 (Post 1684733)
I know right? I guess to some people that is horrible!

I get that people expected Pujols to continue what he did in St. Louis, and relative to those numbers (which had they continued would have made him one of the top five players of all time probably) he disappointed, but to suggest he isn't a HOFer, well, that makes no sense to me.

100backstroke 07-27-2017 09:22 PM

ok
 
Ok, go ahead, put him in. Just real frustrated with his recent stats, and his LOB numbers.

KMayUSA6060 07-27-2017 09:54 PM

You questioning Pujols' HoF status is like a Miami fan saying Ichiro is a borderline HoFer because he's not giving the Marlins 200+ hits and a .340 BA.

Peter_Spaeth 07-27-2017 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060 (Post 1684766)
You questioning Pujols' HoF status is like a Miami fan saying Ichiro is a borderline HoFer because he's not giving the Marlins 200+ hits and a .340 BA.

Or like a Cleveland fan questioning LeBron. :D:eek::cool:

cardsfan73 07-27-2017 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1684768)
Or like a Cleveland fan questioning LeBron. :D:eek::cool:

HA!!

yanksfan09 07-27-2017 10:31 PM

Pujols is beyond a first ballot lock. He's an all time great hitter. Fact is, he's 37 years old. This is how most players play around this age. Some all time greats are done before age 37 (DiMaggio etc...). As a fan I get that weak performance is frustrating but you have to have realistic expectations. At this point in his career anything you get out of Pujols is gravy on top of a long and storied career.

100backstroke 07-27-2017 10:36 PM

I am a fan, an Angels fan. As a fan I have been disappointed with Pujols. Back when, I was all hyped up with Pujols coming to the Angels. I had high hopes of St. Louis type numbers (ok, yeah, all things considered he is a HOF'er). He hasn't put up HOF numbers since he came to the Angels, couple years ok. His recent LOB numbers, well, sigh. That is a big reason why, my Angels to the playoffs, are pie in the sky. He's a BUM! Boo!

cardsfan73 07-27-2017 10:57 PM

To blame Pujols for the Angels lack of a chance at the Playoffs is silly. There are so many issues.. Over paying for aging/declining players and no depth on the farm.

I certainly am glad Moreno stepped up and over paid Albert so the Cardinals didn't get stuck with that bad contract. I am a huge Albert fan and think he is an all time great (and until this season still good) but he was not worth what he got paid.

lrspaulp 07-28-2017 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100backstroke (Post 1684789)
I am a fan, an Angels fan. As a fan I have been disappointed with Pujols. Back when, I was all hyped up with Pujols coming to the Angels. I had high hopes of St. Louis type numbers (ok, yeah, all things considered he is a HOF'er). He hasn't put up HOF numbers since he came to the Angels, couple years ok. His recent LOB numbers, well, sigh. That is a big reason why, my Angels to the playoffs, are pie in the sky. He's a BUM! Boo!

WOW !! He is NOT the reason we don't make the playoffs, where to start though.......Arte's dumb signing of CJ Wilson, Arte's really dumb signing of Josh Hamilton and not re-signing Torii. Mike Butcher being the worst pitching coach in baseball, losing Joe Maddon, no pitching, our out-dated manager........start with those. Albert Pujols is a 100% first ballot HOF player and we over-paid badly for him, but he's not close to being the reason we can't make the playoffs. Just look at what Houston has done....we pissed away our entire farm system over the past 6-7 years.

Sean 07-28-2017 06:45 AM

If you want to boo someone, try Arty Moreno. He overpaid an aging superstar, and you want to blame Pujols? He has performed exactly as a great player should at his age. Just because management overpaid for him doesn't make him the problem.

KMayUSA6060 07-28-2017 08:02 AM

Blame your Front Office for the lack of playoff appearances while Pujols has been here. Might as well blame Trout for not making the playoffs either.

KMayUSA6060 07-28-2017 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1684768)
Or like a Cleveland fan questioning LeBron. :D:eek::cool:

Well played. :cool:

100backstroke 07-28-2017 11:21 AM

ok, don't blame Pujols. He has .233 Batting avg., a .374 slugging average, his WAR is -1.2 (thats NEGATIVE 1.2). And the only category he has ever led while an Angel is GDP, grounded into double plays. And all this batting in a choice and important spot in the lineup and behind Trout. Yup, give me a team full of Pujols' and we would be in the playoff hunt. Just frustrated.

packs 07-28-2017 11:44 AM

Well, who is your ace? Who is your closer? The closest thing the Angels had to an ace while Pujols had been on the team was Jered Weaver, a guy who strikes out no one. I can't think of anyone the Angels have developed through the farm in the last 5 years on the pitching side. Garrett Richards had one good year. Ervin Santana left the year Pujols arrived. There hasn't been much else.

chaddurbin 07-28-2017 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1684730)
How can anyone even think of questioning his credentials? 600 HR and close to 3000 hits and he isn't done. First ballot lock. And his so called down years in LA have included THREE 100 RBI seasons and 40-31-30 HR seasons.

chris carter went from nl hr leader last year to no one willing to sign him in the offseason, front offices are finally wising up. everyone shift now, they all value flyball hitters more...

everyone knew the pujols contract was bad right at the start, just like the big contract detroit gave miggy...except miggy was still productive the first few years. moreno/sciossa know nothing about modern baseball.

rats60 07-28-2017 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100backstroke (Post 1684885)
ok, don't blame Pujols. He has .233 Batting avg., a .374 slugging average, his WAR is -1.2 (thats NEGATIVE 1.2). And the only category he has ever led while an Angel is GDP, grounded into double plays. And all this batting in a choice and important spot in the lineup and behind Trout. Yup, give me a team full of Pujols' and we would be in the playoff hunt. Just frustrated.

And his first four years he had WAR of 4.8, 3.9 and 3.1 plus a year with injuries. Sure he looks done this year. He also has 4 years left on his contract and is going to be a stone around the Angels neck. Whose fault is that? The only dumb person to give him 10 years. The Cardinals wouldn't. That should have been a red flag. Don't blame Pujols, he did what anyone would and took the best offer. Pujols is a no doubt 1st ballot Hofer.

bn2cardz 07-28-2017 01:17 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Mickey Mantle hit .237ba/.385obp/.398slg in his last season at age 36. Pujols hit .268ba/.323obp/.457slg last season (age 36).

Attached is a screen shot of Pujols' and Mantle's age 30-36 seasons. Though there is a slight edge to Mantle, Pujols is very comparable.

100backstroke 07-28-2017 06:17 PM

Mickey Mantle last 5 years offensiveWAR were: 6.6, 2.4, 4.7, 4.6, 4.1 - Pujols' last 5 years oWAR were: 1.3, 3.1, 2.6, 1.8, negative 1.1

My Angels have many problems contributing to their poor record. Thanks y'all for pointing out the various problem areas. However, Pujols is a major problem area this year. Sad to see such a true high end beloved first ballot HOFer slide sooo much.

I just gotta get over it. Hope next season better.

bravos4evr 07-28-2017 06:25 PM

You kinda have no choice. He's there until 2021 and nobody will take him and that contract in trade.

bdk1976 07-28-2017 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bn2cardz (Post 1684913)
Mickey Mantle hit .237ba/.385obp/.398slg in his last season at age 36. Pujols hit .268ba/.323obp/.457slg last season (age 36).



Attached is a screen shot of Pujols' and Mantle's age 30-36 seasons. Though there is a slight edge to Mantle, Pujols is very comparable.


The only issue I have with that comparison is that Mantle's last years were during an era of dominant pitching. Of course Pujols has additional challenges in this day and age that offset this a bit.

I think Griffey is a decent modern comparison- does Albert go in the clubhouse for a snooze during the game or is that still a couple of years off yet?

bravos4evr 07-28-2017 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdk1976 (Post 1685010)
The only issue I have with that comparison is that Mantle's last years were during an era of dominant pitching. Of course Pujols has additional challenges in this day and age that offset this a bit.

I think Griffey is a decent modern comparison- does Albert go in the clubhouse for a snooze during the game or is that still a couple of years off yet?

If you use wRC+ it accounts for era, league and park.

Pujols last 5 years (with 100 being avg)

112,123,115,111, 74

Mantle's age 33-37 years

176,136,166,149,145

dude was still a beast at the end!

Sean 07-29-2017 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1684888)
Well, who is your ace? Who is your closer? The closest thing the Angels had to an ace while Pujols had been on the team was Jered Weaver, a guy who strikes out no one. I can't think of anyone the Angels have developed through the farm in the last 5 years on the pitching side. Garrett Richards had one good year. Ervin Santana left the year Pujols arrived. There hasn't been much else.

Speaking of pitching, the worst move that the Angels have made is letting Zack Greinke leave while at the same time signing Hamilton. Look how they've each performed since then, and the Angels could have kept Greinke for the money they threw away on Hamilton.

ALR-bishop 07-29-2017 01:47 PM

100-- as sorry as I was to see Pujols head west, I was relieved when he turned down the Cardinals last offer because in my view it is the reason they have been back to the Series since the trade and he never has. If it had not been for the 10 year service contract on top of the player contract I had hoped he would eventually finish his career back in St Louis

Hope when he does go in the Hall it is as Red Bird :)

cardsfan73 07-29-2017 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100backstroke (Post 1684885)
ok, don't blame Pujols. He has .233 Batting avg., a .374 slugging average, his WAR is -1.2 (thats NEGATIVE 1.2). And the only category he has ever led while an Angel is GDP, grounded into double plays. And all this batting in a choice and important spot in the lineup and behind Trout. Yup, give me a team full of Pujols' and we would be in the playoff hunt. Just frustrated.

So what your saying is Pujols should have turned down the contract and he needs to stop forcing your manager to stop playing him all the time and placing him in an impact spot in the line up? Got it.

Serious man, do you not get it? Pujols is not the problem w/ the Angels. The entire organization is the problem w/ the Angels! Sure it's nice to have a scapegoat, but your team has bigger problems than Albert! Bench Albert and the Angels still suck.

It would be like me blaming Dexter Fowler for all of the Cardinals problems this year. Do I think they paid to much for him? Sure do, but I also see the bigger issues with the team that have nothing to do with him. We take Fowler out of the line up and we still have poor defense, poor base running and a piss poor bullpen. Don't even get me started on our block head manager. Some of the blame goes to our ex Gm (now team president) for putting together this sub par team too.

I get it, your pissed your team over paid for a declining super star. You want Albert to do at age 37 what he did during the first 11 years of his career. This just wasn't going to happen. The Cardinals knew that but they still made a substantial offer to him. Thankfully good Ol' Arte Moreno came out and offered him even more and saved my team from that albatross of a contract.



On the bright side at least Albert is getting paid and playing, unlike Josh Hamilton who the Angels are paying $26 Million this year!

Should I even bring up the $9 Millions Cameron Maybin is being paid, the $5million that Danny Espinosa (who was also cut) is making.. $9million for Huston Street? $12million for Ricky Nolasco?

About the only team with a worse farm system than the Angels right now is the Royals.. but to their credit they at least sold the farm to reach 2 World Series & win one of them!

Yep, it's all Alberts fault the Angels suck :)

cardsfan73 07-29-2017 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1685181)
Speaking of pitching, the worst move that the Angels have made is letting Zack Greinke leave while at the same time signing Hamilton. Look how they've each performed since then, and the Angels could have kept Greinke for the money they threw away on Hamilton.

That was all Albert's fault too! :)

ALR-bishop 07-29-2017 05:05 PM

And the Cardinals apparently have a tired catcher as well :)

But more the important question is whether the corrected version of the 2001 Topps Pujols card really exists

cardsfan73 07-29-2017 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop (Post 1685222)
And the Cardinals apparently have a tired catcher as well :)

But more the important question is whether the corrected version of the 2001 Topps Pujols card really exists

Al.... Molina will let you know when he is tired gosh darn it! haha

TUM301 07-30-2017 07:31 AM

Although it APPEARS they`ve wised up a BIT, meaning it`s not simply buying anyone, the Angles approach reminds me of the Washington Redskins. Anaheim willl Spend spend spend without any real reason, but maybe I should shut the hell up coming from the land of David Price/Sandoval/"fill in the blank cuban prospect" etc etc. Sandoval 50 mill, out the door is just the latest example of the ole "Bosox" mentality coming back to haunt them. Next up Price, who it appears more every day, can`t pitch in Boston. Well there`s ONLY about 150 balloons left on that gem, $ 10.50 12 once drafts and 100.00 to park here we come !

bravos4evr 07-30-2017 06:21 PM

Price had a 4.5 fWAR season there in 2016
 
and injury has plagued him this season. Had he gotten the same number of inn as 2016 he'd be above 3 fWAR. That's pretty good.

Peter_Spaeth 07-30-2017 06:56 PM

Hard to fault going after Price ex ante. Sandoval was an obvious huge mistake, the guy IMO was tremendously overrated despite some good post-season showings.

TUM301 07-30-2017 07:28 PM

The biggest question with Price was did he really want to come and pitch in Boston. He`s flat out quoted as saying he came for ONE reason, the $$$$$$. Can`t fault a guy for that but, the Sox had J. Lester yes a few years older but a known commodity that had proven it in this market, especially playoff games. The owner, John Henry, stated we don`t give 30+ year old pitchers massive long term deals. IMO Lester stays for 130 for 6, but all water under the bridge now. A large % of the fan base really wants Price to opt out of this deal but the chances of that happening are pretty slim, now with the recurring elbow problems more likely zero.

sycks22 07-30-2017 10:20 PM

Kind of hijacking the thread, but Mauer is more of a "should he / shouldn't he" in the HOF talks. His first 7-8 years he had a couple batting titles, MVP and All-Star almost every year. Since moving to first he's hit .260 ish with 7-10 hrs / season.

packs 07-31-2017 11:50 AM

Mauer is a catcher so I guess he gets credit for what he's done, but to me his career is no different than Mattingly or Nomar's. I don't think he makes the cut.

bravos4evr 08-01-2017 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sycks22 (Post 1685550)
Kind of hijacking the thread, but Mauer is more of a "should he / shouldn't he" in the HOF talks. His first 7-8 years he had a couple batting titles, MVP and All-Star almost every year. Since moving to first he's hit .260 ish with 7-10 hrs / season.

Unless Mauer regains his prior form he will be off the ballot the first year. He's declining rapidly and will probably retire with less than 50 WAR a 120 or so wRC+ and not that great on the counting stats either.

His collapse is pretty interesting really since 2014 he's only been a slightly above avg hitter and that doesn't hack it at 1b.

Peter_Spaeth 08-01-2017 07:54 PM

Speaking of Mauer, Justin Morneau sort of vanished too, for the most part although he did win a cheap batting title, after a few quite good years in the late 00s.

cardsfan73 08-01-2017 08:35 PM

Back to the subject of Albert..

He did go 3 for 5 w/ 3 runs scored, 2 home runs and 4 Rbi the other night, for a brief moment we got to see vintage Albert again!

Yes his play has declined, but he is still going to probably drive in close to 100 runs this year.

Also he is less than 100 hits away from 3000.

I would like to see him retire with a .300 average but if he hangs around to much longer that may be in jeopardy.


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