Net54baseball.com Forums

Net54baseball.com Forums (http://www.net54baseball.com/index.php)
-   Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk (http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25)
-   -   Edelman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=265395)

Snapolit1 02-04-2019 07:45 AM

Edelman
 
How many sportswriters in Boston this morning who were outraged about the Meja signing last week are equally ripping Edelman this morning? Yeah, not many. Sure he’s the toast of the town today. Not a cheater like that other guy. Sure Edelman jerseys through the roof in the next week.

Yastrzemski Sports 02-04-2019 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1 (Post 1851893)
How many sportswriters in Boston this morning who were outraged about the Meja signing last week are equally ripping Edelman this morning? Yeah, not many. Sure hes the toast of the town today. Not a cheater like that other guy. Sure Edelman jerseys through the roof in the next week.

I may be out of the loop. Maybe you could elaborate on what Mejia and Edelman have to do with each other or why writers would have anything to say about the super bowl mvp that would compare to a banned baseball player. I guess I have no idea what you are talking about.

Jim65 02-04-2019 08:48 AM

The Super Bowl MVP was suspended 4 games for PED's. Steroids is tolerated way more by football fans than baseball fans. Not fair but its the way it is.

Hxcmilkshake 02-04-2019 09:36 AM

Well, Edelman didn't break every sacred football record so it's tolerated more.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

TUM301 02-04-2019 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1 (Post 1851893)
How many sportswriters in Boston this morning who were outraged about the Meja signing last week are equally ripping Edelman this morning? Yeah, not many. Sure hes the toast of the town today. Not a cheater like that other guy. Sure Edelman jerseys through the roof in the next week.

Actually, Edelman jerseys have been selling very well for years now.

Snapolit1 02-04-2019 10:19 AM

Guy suspended this year was allowed to play in the showcase event of the sport. A little weird, no?

I got not no axe to grind about the pats or Edelman. Just hate double standards.

RedsFan1941 02-04-2019 10:37 AM

double standard? 2 different leagues right? what are you talking about?

Lorewalker 02-04-2019 10:45 AM

Apples and oranges. Every sport has their own policies on PED violations. Why shouldn't he have played in the SB? My gut tells me that lots of guys are using in the NFL and somehow do not get caught. If he passes the sniff test then he should be suited up and ready to go. If you think the NFL might be too loose on their PED policy, well that is a different story.

Snapolit1 02-04-2019 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 1851917)
Apples and oranges. Every sport has their own policies on PED violations. Why shouldn't he have played in the SB? My gut tells me that lots of guys are using in the NFL and somehow do not get caught. If he passes the sniff test then he should be suited up and ready to go. If you think the NFL might be too loose on their PED policy, well that is a different story.

I think a lot of guys are using in the NFL. Hell, probably most of them are. But why are we so outraged that a baseball player who probably has $100 in the bank and is hanging on by a thread uses something (despicable, scum of the earth, etc.) but don't have a problem looking the other way in football -- an entire sport that's all about brute force and power. I just don't get the double standard. If doping is despicable cheating in baseball and cycling and many other sports why isn't it in football?

Yastrzemski Sports 02-04-2019 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65 (Post 1851900)
The Super Bowl MVP was suspended 4 games for PED's. Steroids is tolerated way more by football fans than baseball fans. Not fair but its the way it is.

Ok. Thanks. I wasnt aware. I get it now and I can comment.
Steroids in sports are a mixed issue - and the issue is that no one cares as long as the player can help your team. One of the most popular players in the league is Bartolo Colon. Everyone loves big sexy. No one cares that he has a ped suspension. They wonder how he can keep doing it at his age. Same with Nelson Cruz. No one cares as long as he hits 40 hr and forget quickly that he had some help. The Mets welcomed Robinson Cano. The issue comes down the road when the player cant help the team any more or when their question about the HOF comes up. Then they are horrible cheaters and there is no place in the game for them. But while the player is productive the fans welcome them.

KMayUSA6060 02-04-2019 01:01 PM

I hate Edelman because he went to Can't State.

Go Zips. :cool:

steve B 02-04-2019 01:50 PM

I think a lot of it has to do with how the player approaches things when they get caught, as well as the sport.

Mostly players where they have some nearly valid excuse but accept their suspension are treated a bit better than the ones who try to make up insane stuff to get out of it.


Lance Armstrong - I didn't dope, and I'll sue you back to the stone age if you say I did. ---- Proof after his career is over, still denied it. Lifetime ban.


Alberto Contador - I tested positive for what? It must have been in the beef the fans sent. (entirely plausible, as it was clenbuterol, and at a level 400x lower than the WADA wants people tested for. ) Some appeals and delays, finally a year suspension and a few race results from 2010 and 2011 annulled in 2012. Back racing in late 2012 as part of the suspension was retroactive somehow.

Jim65 02-04-2019 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports (Post 1851934)
Ok. Thanks. I wasnt aware. I get it now and I can comment.
Steroids in sports are a mixed issue - and the issue is that no one cares as long as the player can help your team. One of the most popular players in the league is Bartolo Colon. Everyone loves big sexy. No one cares that he has a ped suspension. They wonder how he can keep doing it at his age. Same with Nelson Cruz. No one cares as long as he hits 40 hr and forget quickly that he had some help. The Mets welcomed Robinson Cano. The issue comes down the road when the player cant help the team any more or when their question about the HOF comes up. Then they are horrible cheaters and there is no place in the game for them. But while the player is productive the fans welcome them.

There is definitely a double standard. Likable guys like David Ortiz and Andy Pettitte get passes for cheating but unlikeable guy like ARod, Clemens and Barry Bonds are treated like axe murderers.

I'm guilty too, I have an issue with Cano but I love the Mets so I will root for him.

D. Bergin 02-04-2019 02:57 PM

Edelman is a nice, solid little player, but when I clicked on this thread I assumed it was going to be more about how so many Pats fans and others in the media seem all of a sudden be claiming that Edelman is a future HOF'er.

Almost as if it's a foregone conclusion.

Headscratching to say the least. I understand he's been on several teams that have won Super Bowls, and has performed well in the Playoffs, but when a guy like Isaac Bruce, with twice as many catches and 3 times as many yards, while playing in a less offensive friendly era, has problems getting in. I don't understand how Edelman has a chance, even if he has several more strong years left in him.

Maybe he's the Lynn Swann of our generation, and he gets in strictly because of his postseason exploits. I don't know.

At this point, he seems like a poor mans Wes Welker.......but with rings. Welker was pretty much done after his age 32 season, which Edelman is right now.

pokerplyr80 02-04-2019 03:12 PM

Edelman isn't as flashy or physically talented as guys like Moss, Beckham, and many others. But he gets the job done when it counts the most. 3rd down, and in the playoffs. What he did in that last drive against the Saints, and yesterday winning super bowl mvp, will be remembered for a long time. I am not a Patriots fan but I think that will get him into the HOF eventually, just perhaps not in his first year or two of eligibility.

As for the issue of his ped suspension not hurting his image as much as players in other sports others in this thread mentioned one of the main reasons. He accepted his punishment graciously, apologized, and took responsibility right away.

packs 02-04-2019 04:26 PM

Edelman isn't any different from Brady. Neither player has respect for the rules or the people they play against, so much so that they'll compromise their integrity for a cheap victory; as though it means anything to win a game you cheated in.

obcbobd 02-04-2019 06:07 PM

I believe Edelman was a first time offender who was suspended for four games.

Wasn't Meja was supended three times and banned for life.

I do agree that it's odd that people have been up in arms about PEDs in more so in baseball, but not so much in football. I would assume steroid use in football is much higher.

Peter_Spaeth 02-04-2019 06:22 PM

I can't imagine Edelman is even close to being a HOFer at this point, and I like him a lot.

Peter_Spaeth 02-04-2019 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1852021)
Edelman isn't any different from Brady. Neither player has respect for the rules or the people they play against, so much so that they'll compromise their integrity for a cheap victory; as though it means anything to win a game you cheated in.

Deflategate lives!!!

packs 02-04-2019 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1852041)
Deflategate lives!!!

Isn't it believed by many that Edelman's positive test was related to his treatment from Alex Guerrero, who is also Tom Brady's personal health guru?

pokerplyr80 02-04-2019 06:41 PM

It's my understanding that basically every qb who commented on deflate gate said it wasn't a big deal, and they all adjusted the pressure to their own personal preference. Rodgers would have the balls over inflated because they were easier to grip.

It's also my understanding the nfl "investigation" turned up no evidence the balls had actually been deflated and that scientists proved the difference in pressure could have naturally occurred due to change in temperature.

Peter_Spaeth 02-04-2019 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1852043)
Isn't it believed by many that Edelman's positive test was related to his treatment from Alex Guerrero, who is also Tom Brady's personal health guru?

Guilt by speculation and association?

Peter_Spaeth 02-04-2019 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 (Post 1852048)
It's my understanding that basically every qb who commented on deflate gate said it wasn't a big deal, and they all adjusted the pressure to their own personal preference. Rodgers would have the balls over inflated because they were easier to grip.

It's also my understanding the nfl "investigation" turned up no evidence the balls had actually been deflated and that scientists proved the difference in pressure could have naturally occurred due to change in temperature.

Other than that...

You could roll a bowling ball out there and Brady would win.

clydepepper 02-04-2019 08:28 PM

Who whispered this:

'My kingdom for a good masking agent'

Was it:

A.) Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens

or

B.) Roger Clemens & Barry Bonds

or

C.) Both (A) & (B)


Spoiler Alert: A,B & C are ALL true!

bnorth 02-04-2019 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper (Post 1852091)
Who whispered this:

'My kingdom for a good masking agent'

Was it:

A.) Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens

or

B.) Roger Clemens & Barry Bonds

or

C.) Both (A) & (B)


Spoiler Alert: A,B & C are ALL true!

I would have to say "(D) All of the above are wrong". When did Roger ever fail a PED test?

Peter_Spaeth 02-04-2019 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1852104)
I would have to say "(D) All of the above are wrong". When did Roger ever fail a PED test?

In the mind of the public.

pokerplyr80 02-04-2019 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1852120)
In the mind of the public.

As I understand it there was no real evidence against Clemens other than the word of his trainer. And he had some serious credibility issues. Unless there is more to the story I haven't heard I don't think that should be enough to keep him out of the HOF.

Jim65 02-05-2019 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 (Post 1852125)
As I understand it there was no real evidence against Clemens other than the word of his trainer. And he had some serious credibility issues. Unless there is more to the story I haven't heard I don't think that should be enough to keep him out of the HOF.

Andy Pettitte said Clemens told him the he took steroids. No one ever accused Pettitte of having credibility issues, the fact that Andy admitted his own use just gives him more credibility. Obviously hearsay not admissible in court but enough to convict in court of public opinion.

obcbobd 02-05-2019 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 (Post 1852048)
It's my understanding that basically every qb who commented on deflate gate said it wasn't a big deal, and they all adjusted the pressure to their own personal preference. Rodgers would have the balls over inflated because they were easier to grip.

It's also my understanding the nfl "investigation" turned up no evidence the balls had actually been deflated and that scientists proved the difference in pressure could have naturally occurred due to change in temperature.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good story :-)

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65 (Post 1852154)
Andy Pettitte said Clemens told him the he took steroids. No one ever accused Pettitte of having credibility issues, the fact that Andy admitted his own use just gives him more credibility. Obviously hearsay not admissible in court but enough to convict in court of public opinion.

Pettitte so testified in Clemens' trial. It was admissible. It didn't convince the jury.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/02/s...ury-trial.html

Jim65 02-05-2019 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1852160)
Pettitte so testified in Clemens' trial. It was admissible. It didn't convince the jury.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/02/s...ury-trial.html

Thanks for the clarification.

It did convince me though. Clemens and Pettitte were best friends, Pettitte had absolutely no reason to lie.

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65 (Post 1852167)
Thanks for the clarification.

It did convince me though. Clemens and Pettitte were best friends, Pettitte had absolutely no reason to lie.

As I recall, even on direct his memory wasn't so clear, and his testimony did not hold up well on cross.

packs 02-05-2019 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1852160)
Pettitte so testified in Clemens' trial. It was admissible. It didn't convince the jury.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/02/s...ury-trial.html

I guess he just decided to make it up then? Why would a player tarnish their own reputation in an attempt to discredit someone else? Isn't it more likely that the player put themselves at risk to tell the truth?

Isn't guilt by association / speculation the same cloud that hangs over Barry Bonds and David Ortiz? What makes Brady different to you?

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1852174)
I guess he just decided to make it up then? Why would a player tarnish their own reputation in an attempt to discredit someone else? Isn't it more likely that the player put themselves at risk to tell the truth?

Isn't guilt by association / speculation the same cloud that hangs over Barry Bonds and David Ortiz? What makes Brady different to you?

As to Pettite, he admitted he might have misunderstood Clemens. His testimony was far from compelling, even before cross.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/7...emens-hgh-talk

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 08:29 AM

Are you seriously claiming there is a degree of suspicion about Brady using comparable to Bonds and Ortiz? There was also lots of circumstantial evidence about Bonds and Ortiz, and in the case of Bonds a lot more than circumstantial (his GF for one). is there any at all about Brady?

packs 02-05-2019 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1852183)
Are you seriously claiming there is a degree of suspicion about Brady using comparable to Bonds and Ortiz? There was also lots of circumstantial evidence about Bonds and Ortiz, and in the case of Bonds a lot more than circumstantial (his GF for one). is there any at all about Brady?

I said its the same cloud. Brady trains with a guy who has been banned from the sidelines, plane and locker room in the past. The same trainer started working with Edelman and Edelman failed a test after beginning his work with the guy. I would call that a cloud of suspicion but that's just me.

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1852187)
I said its the same cloud. Brady trains with a guy who has been banned from the sidelines, plane and locker room in the past. The same trainer started working with Edelman and Edelman failed a test after beginning his work with the guy. I would call that a cloud of suspicion but that's just me.

As I understand it much of that had to do with Belichick trying to assert his power and control and not wanting Guerrero to become a quasi-employee.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/t...ns-suspension/

packs 02-05-2019 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1852188)
As I understand it much of that had to do with Belichick trying to assert his power and control and not wanting Guerrero to become a quasi-employee.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/t...ns-suspension/

If you look into Guerrero's "medical" background you will find he doesn't have one at all and has been sanctioned by the FTC in the past for false claims and invented studies about products he's endorsed or created.

Would you want that guy around your players? Or was it just a power struggle?

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1852189)
If you look into Guerrero's "medical" background you will find he doesn't have one at all and has been sanctioned by the FTC in the past for false claims and invented studies about products he's endorsed or created.

Would you want that guy around your players? Or was it just a power struggle?

Right, but that doesn't make him a purveyor of PEDs. Just a quack.

packs 02-05-2019 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1852190)
Right, but that doesn't make him a purveyor of PEDs.

It makes him a purveyor of questionable supplements and medications with connections to a player who has definitively tested positive for PEDs.

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1852191)
It makes him a purveyor of questionable supplements and medications with connections to a player who has definitively tested positive for PEDs.

And who very well might have obtained them from a different source. I imagine an NFL star wouldn't have much trouble getting access to whatever drugs he wanted, and there are probably people out there offering them every day. And in any event it's a leap of faith (or maybe a leap of hate) to taint Brady with that.

packs 02-05-2019 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1852195)
And who very well might have obtained them from a different source. I imagine an NFL star wouldn't have much trouble getting access to whatever drugs he wanted, and there are probably people out there offering them every day. And in any event it's a leap of faith (or maybe a leap of hate) to taint Brady with that.

Yeah, well, from what I remember Bonds tried to pass off his admission by portraying himself as an innocent client of a disreputable trainer who didn't tell him what he was putting into his body.

Sounds like a guy with something in common with who we're talking about. That would be the cloud I mentioned. I never said there was hard evidence, just a reason to suspect. And in Brady's case his direct ties to a guy like that outweigh any evidence I've heard about Ortiz, who is believed by many to have cheated. But not Tom Brady, oh no, never. You can't even suspect him of it.

packs 02-05-2019 09:10 AM

Double post.

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1852196)
Yeah, well, from what I remember Bonds tried to pass off his admission by portraying himself as an innocent client of a disreputable trainer who didn't tell him what he was putting into his body.

Sounds like a guy with something in common with who we're talking about. That would be the cloud I mentioned. I never said there was hard evidence, just a reason to suspect.

I guess we just view the available evidence in a different light at this point. I don't care for Guerrero based on what I've read either, but I don't think he's a drug guy, could be wrong.

pokerplyr80 02-05-2019 12:30 PM

I forgot about Pettite, but still don't think a suspicion should keep Clemens out. Hopefully one of these years enough voters will agree. As for bonds his size difference between his last year or two playing and a few years later is enough to convince me he was using something. But he was a HOFer before he started getting bigger. If I had a vote it would be yes on them both.

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 01:29 PM

Gun to my head and I had to guess right, I would say Clemens used. But I think lots of guys used who have been given a pass. I'm really not sure what the right answer is, for example I personally support Clemens and Bonds but I would vote no on Sosa and Palmeiro and I'm not sure how to rationalize that.

Jim65 02-05-2019 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1852263)
Gun to my head and I had to guess right, I would say Clemens used. But I think lots of guys used who have been given a pass. I'm really not sure what the right answer is, for example I personally support Clemens and Bonds but I would vote no on Sosa and Palmeiro and I'm not sure how to rationalize that.

Palmeiro is easy to vote no since he failed a PED test, Sosa never did but was caught using a corked bat so he was caught cheating.

Peter_Spaeth 02-05-2019 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65 (Post 1852265)
Palmeiro is easy to vote no since he failed a PED test, Sosa never did but was caught using a corked bat so he was caught cheating.

I think my feeling right or wrong is that Bonds and Clemens are all time greats even if they don't use, whereas Sosa and Palmeiro most of their numbers for their whole career are due to using. That could be off. I'm not sure how I feel about McGwire.

buymycards 02-05-2019 02:32 PM

Back to Edelman
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin (Post 1851987)
Edelman is a nice, solid little player, but when I clicked on this thread I assumed it was going to be more about how so many Pats fans and others in the media seem all of a sudden be claiming that Edelman is a future HOF'er.

Almost as if it's a foregone conclusion.

Headscratching to say the least. I understand he's been on several teams that have won Super Bowls, and has performed well in the Playoffs, but when a guy like Isaac Bruce, with twice as many catches and 3 times as many yards, while playing in a less offensive friendly era, has problems getting in. I don't understand how Edelman has a chance, even if he has several more strong years left in him.

Maybe he's the Lynn Swann of our generation, and he gets in strictly because of his postseason exploits. I don't know.

At this point, he seems like a poor mans Wes Welker.......but with rings. Welker was pretty much done after his age 32 season, which Edelman is right now.

He needs to stay around a long time to get the numbers for the HOF. He has 499 receptions, which puts him in a tie for 148th all time. He has 5398 receiving yards, for 248th all time. 224th in yards per game. He is a solid player, and he benefits from having Brady and Belichek heavily involving him in the game plan. But HOF? I doubt it.

steve B 02-05-2019 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buymycards (Post 1852273)
He needs to stay around a long time to get the numbers for the HOF. He has 499 receptions, which puts him in a tie for 148th all time. He has 5398 receiving yards, for 248th all time. 224th in yards per game. He is a solid player, and he benefits from having Brady and Belichek heavily involving him in the game plan. But HOF? I doubt it.

And that's part of the puzzle. What would he do on a team where he was the primary receiver instead of in a system where someone else will get more looks if the matchup is better. How open does he get if teams aren't double teaming Gronk?

Or, on another team does he take one too many passes over the middle into big hits because everyone knows where the ball is going and instead of having a good season after recovering from a knee injury, it's a couple knee injuries and a handful of concussions and he's out of the league after 5 years?


A lot of Patriots recievers don't put up amazing numbers, but might do well on other teams. Of course Moss was horrible in Oakland playing for a team that just wasn't good.


How to rate a solid player in a system that isn't geared towards making stars? I'm not sure that's answerable as far as the HOF goes.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:25 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.