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  #1  
Old 04-25-2018, 06:00 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Connie Mack's big mistake. Trading away Joe Jackson. Let's see some cards.

Connie Mack was one of BB's great Managers. But, his rigid recruiting practices caused him to miss out on one of the most promising rookies, Joe Jackson.
Connie mostly recruited players directly from College teams. He considered College players to be smarter (and more willing to learn) than ballplayers from
the Farm system.
Anyhow, in 1908 Connie was impressed with a 20-year old rookie, Joe Jackson. Who batted .346 for Greenville (A's farm team). Joe joined the A's on July
30, 1908. Joe's performance was disappointing. He got 3 Hits for 23 AB's. Joe was very unhappy in Philly. He was the subject of some tough hazing by the
A's players. Hazing of rookies in the Major Leagues was typical back then. Especially, rookies that grew up in the "Deep South" (Al, Ga, Ms SC). Of course
Ty Cobb is a prime example of this. However, Cobb was a tough dude and knew how to deal with it. So, Joe took a train down to Greenville to be with his
newly wed wife. Connie sent a scout down to Greenville to bring him back to Philly. April 5, 1909, Connie sent Joe to the Savannah team. Joe batted .358

Connie Mack had a keen sense for talent; therefore, I do not understand why he didn't make a serious effort to convince Joe to stick it out with the A's.
Instead, he traded Joe to Cleveland for Bris Lord on July 30, 1910. Joe found a very friendly group of players in Cleveland. And, the rest is history.

I'm curious what your opinions are regarding this situation ?

And, lets see some Joe Jackson and Connie Mack cards.









Connie Mack believed that ballplayers in College received better training **......than the ones in the Minor League Farm system.
Connie had a keen sense of talent, and he (and his brother) would scout out young recruits from College campuses.
Here is a list of the A's in the T206 set which were recruited directly from College teams......

Jack Barry (Holy Cross)
Chief Bender (Dickinson)
Eddie Collins (Columbia)
Harry Davis (Girard College)
Harry Krause (St Mary's College)
Simon Nicholls (Maryland)
Eddie Plank (Gettysburg College)
Doc Powers (Holy Cross)

and, missing from the T206 set
Andy Coakley (Holy Cross)
Jack Coombs (Colby College)......(1910 W-L = 31-9, ERA = 1.30)


** Note....Connie Mack (the Early Years of Baseball), by Norman Macht
While reading this book, you'll imagine the guys in your T206 set come alive. Almost every player from that era is covered in this book.



TED Z
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  #2  
Old 04-25-2018, 06:10 PM
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From your chronology Mack gave it two years. He probably decided at that point it wasn't going to work.
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Old 04-26-2018, 02:24 AM
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Nice M101-4 with a scarce back:
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  #4  
Old 04-26-2018, 06:00 AM
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Default CJ Jackson

Philadelphia would have won a few more championships if they kept him.
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  #5  
Old 04-26-2018, 06:53 AM
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Did Eddie Plank reallllllly go to Gettysburg College? I thought that that was always assumed but he really didn't?
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:12 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Connie Mack's big mistake. Trading away Joe Jackson. Let's see some cards.

Hi Brendan

Eddie Plank (at age 22) enrolled in Gettysburg Academy, a prep school under the auspices of Gettysburg College. Plank never attended the College, but
played on the team. Frank Foreman was the coach of the Gettysburg College team. When Foreman saw Plank's unorthodox delivery, he promised Plank
"Follow my instructions closely, I will make you one of the greatest southpaws in the country." Foreman had turned Plank into that rarest of pitchers, a
cross-firing southpaw with outstanding control of his curve and fastball. Connie Mack recruited Plank directly from Gettysburg College.


.



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Old 04-26-2018, 10:53 AM
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  #8  
Old 04-26-2018, 01:46 PM
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Joe may have had difficulty with the readin and riting stuff, but he sure knew how to pose for a baseball game card.

Brian (card not mine)
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  #9  
Old 04-26-2018, 01:53 PM
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I don't have any cards to show, as Mack, Jackson, and Bris Lord are not T206s ....

But I have to agree with Ted's analysis that Mack thought Philly was to big and sophisticated for Jackson (and that may have been correct, even in the long run).

Now, I don't want to get into a "Philly Fight" with Ted, but I do want to mention two things .....

1 -- Harry Davis did go to Girard College. However, GC is actually a grade (1-12) preparatory school. It was founded in the 1820s as the second public school in America. It was founded for poor, orphaned males that showed promise in life. Davis' father died when he was 5, and his mother got him into GC, were he was an exceptional student and athlete. GC is still very active, and if you're ever in Phil. it's worth a visit, as it is a beautiful campus with great history.

2 -- As a Dickinson College alumni (1982), I wish I could say Bender went to DC. However he attended Carlisle Indian School, located in Carlisle PA, as is DC. Now Bender did take a few DC classes open to CIS students at the time, and he did pitch for DC on occasion. However, that was frowned upon, and he usually got suspended a game or two by CIS for doing so.

Also to add to list: Eddie Collins -- Columbia. Fun fact -- Collins clandestinely played for A's in 1906 as Eddie Sullivan, as he was still at Columbia , and that wouldn't have gone over to well in the Ivy's.

Always fun, Scott
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  #10  
Old 04-27-2018, 10:40 AM
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1912 Philadelphia Caramel (E96)






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  #11  
Old 04-27-2018, 12:46 PM
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Hi Brendan

Eddie Plank (at age 22) enrolled in Gettysburg Academy, a prep school under the auspices of Gettysburg College. Plank never attended the College, but
played on the team. Frank Foreman was the coach of the Gettysburg College team. When Foreman saw Plank's unorthodox delivery, he promised Plank
"Follow my instructions closely, I will make you one of the greatest southpaws in the country." Foreman had turned Plank into that rarest of pitchers, a
cross-firing southpaw with outstanding control of his curve and fastball. Connie Mack recruited Plank directly from Gettysburg College.


Great info, thanks!
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  #12  
Old 04-27-2018, 01:29 PM
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Cool thread Ted. I dont have any Connie Mack cards, but here are my two Joe Jacksons -- and that M101-4 Ware's is just awesome!
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:03 PM
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No Jacksons, but I did pick up a new Mack not too long ago.



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  #14  
Old 04-27-2018, 02:47 PM
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Default Mr. Mack

Nice Pinkerton DJ! Me like-y.

Here's my 1915 Postaco Stamp of Mr. Mack:

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Last edited by h2oya311; 04-27-2018 at 02:48 PM.
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  #15  
Old 04-27-2018, 04:36 PM
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Default E98 BSF Mack

Just a wee bit off-center...

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  #16  
Old 04-27-2018, 07:08 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Connie Mack's big mistake. Trading away Joe Jackson. Let's see some cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mybuddyinc View Post
I don't have any cards to show, as Mack, Jackson, and Bris Lord are not T206s ....

But I have to agree with Ted's analysis that Mack thought Philly was to big and sophisticated for Jackson (and that may have been correct, even in the long run).

Now, I don't want to get into a "Philly Fight" with Ted, but I do want to mention two things .....

1 -- Harry Davis did go to Girard College. However, GC is actually a grade (1-12) preparatory school. It was founded in the 1820s as the second public school in America. It was founded for poor, orphaned males that showed promise in life. Davis' father died when he was 5, and his mother got him into GC, were he was an exceptional student and athlete. GC is still very active, and if you're ever in Phil. it's worth a visit, as it is a beautiful campus with great history.

2 -- As a Dickinson College alumni (1982), I wish I could say Bender went to DC. However he attended Carlisle Indian School, located in Carlisle PA, as is DC. Now Bender did take a few DC classes open to CIS students at the time, and he did pitch for DC on occasion. However, that was frowned upon, and he usually got suspended a game or two by CIS for doing so.

Also to add to list: Eddie Collins -- Columbia. Fun fact -- Collins clandestinely played for A's in 1906 as Eddie Sullivan, as he was still at Columbia , and that wouldn't have gone over to well in the Ivy's.

Always fun, Scott

Hi Scott

Very interesting stuff....thanks for chiming in here.


I often visit the nearby Philadelphia A's Historical Society. Twelve years ago, the guest speaker at their annual brunch was Connie Mack III.
He kept us mesmerized for 2 hours talking about his famous Grandfather. Afterwards, I had a chance to talk with him. A really friendly guy,
we talked for about 1/2 hour. We covered a lot of A's baseball (1901 - 1953). He signed my 1950 A's Golden Jubilee Program.







TED Z

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Old 04-27-2018, 07:22 PM
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Old 04-28-2018, 06:17 PM
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I always enjoy a good history discussion. It'd be interesting to see how Mack and Jackson got along. I wonder if it was personal.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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Old 04-29-2018, 10:57 PM
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I've owned this slabbed card for a long, long time. I think someone told me long ago that this TPG, SBC, was a predecessor to SGC. Does anyone know if there was any connection between SBC and SGC?
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:36 PM
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Hi Val

Great looking Old Judge of Connie.


TED Z

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  #21  
Old 05-01-2018, 08:40 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Connie Mack's big mistake. Trading away Joe Jackson. Let's see some cards.

Hey guys,

OK, I wil give this subject one more try. It really "bugs" me that Joe Jackson never got a chance to prove himself to Connie Mack
and his "elitist" A's teammates with Philadelphia. Why a smart Manager like Connie Mack traded away one of the most promising
rookies ever to play the game is mind boggling. To add insult to injury, Joe Jackson was traded for Bris Lord (a .256 career hitter).
Furthermore, Bris Lord played for the A's in 1905-1907. Mack traded him to Cleveland. And, Connie Mack very seldom re-acquired
players that he had traded away. So, this trade (Joe Jax for Bris Lord) absolutely does not make any sense.
Or does it in a strange way ?
One factor in this ridiculous trade that I feel played a role was "northern prejudice" towards ballplayers who grew up in the "Deep
South" (Al, Ga, Ms, SC). Ty Cobb is a prime example of this prejudice. However, Cobb knew how to deal with it......Joe Jax did not.
You can check this out: 390 unique ballplayers are featured in the T206 set. Less than a dozen of them grew up in the Deep South.

Here's my only card of Bris Lord (an E104). Same exact card as is in the T208 Cullivan's Fireside set. Quite obviously, this image is
NOT that of Bristol Lord. But, it is that of Sherry Magee. If anyone on this forum has a real card of Bris Lord, please post it here.







TED Z

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Old 05-02-2018, 08:31 AM
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+1 And another Connie....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Val

Great looking Old Judge of Connie.

TED Z

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Old 05-03-2018, 10:38 AM
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Great pix of Connie....thanks for posting it, Leon.


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  #24  
Old 05-03-2018, 11:29 AM
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Someone has already shared Mack's Play Ball, so I won't share mine.

However, it quickly became one of my favorite cards due to it displaying his full name on the back, which I find to be hilarious.

Cornelius McGillicuddy

Interesting unrelated-to-the-thread Joe Jackson connection to my collection. I have a 1916 M101 or whatever Bob Roth. I picked one up after Cleveland's Tyler Naquin hit a walk-off inside-the-park HR in 2016 against the Blue Jays. The only other Indian to do that was Roth. While researching Bob Roth, I found out that the Indians received him in the trade that sent Shoeless Joe to the White Sox. The Indians received Roth and two other players I believe, none of which were shoeless or worth a damn for that matter.
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Old 05-03-2018, 01:45 PM
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Old 05-04-2018, 07:00 PM
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This is quite an impressive biography of Connie Mack......check-it out.


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