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  #51  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:07 AM
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Big Money 6 figure investors will find another place to make money.

TPGSwill thrive after the smoke clears people still think their collectibles are worth more money in their holders......sheeple will continue to buy holders not cards.

Mid Grade and Off Grade Collectors will always be around bottom feeding for the cheapest cards they can possibly find to fill their sets.

Card Doctors Will Never Go Away....When the market gets over bought they flock when it sells off they disapear.... nothing new same old same...

This has always been a dark, dirty, behind closed door industry filled with fraud if you don't know by now wake up and smell the roses of reality
Do you really think it'll be that much longer before repro cards are indiscernible from original? Altered original will come back into favor over indiscernible fake.
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  #52  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:01 AM
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TPGSwill thrive after the smoke clears people still think their collectibles are worth more money in their holders......sheeple will continue to buy holders not cards.
People don't need to think it, because it is true. I have been downsizing my collection. I have been able to get far more for nice condition cards graded than ungraded. I had only graded 1 card prior to 4 years ago when I started downsizing, but I refuse to throw away money selling for pennies on the dollar while someone else makes two or three times their money.
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  #53  
Old 06-07-2019, 11:26 AM
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People don't need to think it, because it is true. I have been downsizing my collection. I have been able to get far more for nice condition cards graded than ungraded. I had only graded 1 card prior to 4 years ago when I started downsizing, but I refuse to throw away money selling for pennies on the dollar while someone else makes two or three times their money.
Yes, unfortunately that has been the case in recent years. But this thread focuses on what will happen moving forward. The extent of the TPG's ineptitude is just beginning to be revealed, and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Moser alone has been submitting altered cards for grading for over 15 years, and nobody knows how widespread they really are. There are likely countless others that have never been (and never will be) revealed. Serious doubt has been cast in all of our collections.

The TPG's level of arrogance and denial was made very apparent in PSA's recent Letter to collectors. They care only about profits... not the good of the hobby. So hopefully the word will spread outside of these forums. Hopefully Law Enforcement will take notice, and actually do something along the lines of Mastro/Legendary/Rogers. Those of us who are focused on integrity can only boycott these entities and try to deliver the message to a far wider audience. Money should not be the only factor driving the hobby.

That said... Nothing is likely to change.
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  #54  
Old 06-07-2019, 11:41 AM
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Does anyone know where this Gary Moser guy lives? man it would be great to show up at his house... vigilante style!
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  #55  
Old 06-07-2019, 11:46 AM
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I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?
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  #56  
Old 06-07-2019, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by PowderedH2O View Post
I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?
Yes. Mail fraud and wire fraud, if sold using the mails or the wires (internet). Lots of posts on this in prior threads. Not going to repeat them.
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  #57  
Old 06-07-2019, 12:31 PM
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Well that was helpful. Still don't see it. Oh well.
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  #58  
Old 06-07-2019, 12:35 PM
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Well that was helpful. Still don't see it. Oh well.
I don't mean to be rude not doing a full reply but I just don't want to repeat and debate the same things I've said before. What you describe is classic fraud.
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  #59  
Old 06-07-2019, 01:57 PM
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I don't mean to be rude not doing a full reply but I just don't want to repeat and debate the same things I've said before. What you describe is classic fraud.
I donít see it, counselor. Nice try.
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  #60  
Old 06-07-2019, 02:29 PM
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i don’t see it, counselor. Nice try.
lol
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  #61  
Old 06-07-2019, 03:43 PM
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that people believe PSA will be paying out any kind of significant monies. They will fight to the death on a card by card basis with them in a staring role as the fox surrounded by nothing but the hens. Add - or more appropriately subtract - many cards from the conversation as well whose owners won't know about or participate in any kind of cleansing "process". PSA will go on forever...ÖÖ..
I don't collect modern graded cards so I know nothing about BVG or their previous/current iterations or Black label designations.
SGC has been my grader of choice. I always spoke to them about the mistake they made going into autographs while their own house (core business) wasn't in order. They will have to be aggressive to increase their market share as they are mostly called upon to grade vintage cards.
Overall I think the hobby in general NEEDS grading companies. I hope they will continue to improve their methods - but with a likely minute or less to make determinations about grade and authenticity by someone who may not be a seasoned veteran card grader - along with the increasing skill sets and technology available to card doctors - graded (and raw) card collectors need to realize the inherent limitations of their own eyes and those of the TPG's even with more sophisticated equipment.
I've known of card doctoring and of a doctor or two operating under the radar since I got in the hobby nearly 30 years ago including one or two of the people that have been mentioned in the many threads here and on a couple of other sites I was linked to from here. I remember Gary and a partner from over 25 years ago. No personal knowledge of his guilt or innocence. Always going to be people in this world trying to separate one from their money without a legitimate means. That shit will go on forever - and the devil takes many forms. I try and be an informed consumer but there's only so far I will go. Like at the poker table I get angry at the idiot that always seems to play with his 18%. I go into the situation with my eyes open - occasional he will snap me but I am an educated consumer :-) All grades can be suspect of manipulation BUT I have cut the odds down NOT buying very high grade cards for my sets, instead settling for very-good to excellent overall. I think there should only be 4 grades - all of which incorporate not only technical focus but aesthetics - determined by LOOKING AT THE FREAKING CARD! :-) That's for another day.
PWCC - or whatever their acronym is. Man they are in the news here a LOT! It all seems like smoke and mirrors. Certainly they SEEM complicit beyond the casual. I think they will stall and deflect until they are forced into some accelerated response by whatever PSA and eBay does as surely they don't dictate to either despite all the money they bring in. They are MONSTER sellers. Maybe pwcc just won't continue at the crazy growth levels of the past 10 (?) years.
As for the overall hobby - yesh. Hate this shit but like the direction of the country I love - I have but little impact other than looking at it in the light of day along with others and hoping as they see the same light we can get increasingly more people to see it and bring pressure to bear for change. One can hope can't they?
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  #62  
Old 06-07-2019, 03:54 PM
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I know you're goofing on Jay but if you watch some games some of these women are fantastic basketball players and because they mostly don't dunk it's more basic, fundamental basketball which purists will appreciate.
I prefer HS Girls basketball to the Lakers or the Clippers. My friend's daughter is on her way starting with a full scholarship to Santa Clara in her Junior year. They are FUN to watch.
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  #63  
Old 06-07-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by PowderedH2O View Post
I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?
seriously.Yes PSA is incompetent only to this point in the story. It remains to be seen if they are implicit to the crime. I personally believe they are. You don't have to be a Lawyer to know for FACT what they are doing is fraud. It is almost laughable if you don't think it's not illegal to HIDE material facts about the cards they are reselling.

Let people crack cards, doctor the F out of them and get higher grades on the resubmit. THEN DON'T TELL ANYONE. DING DING DING. Hello McFly, anybody home! They do it over and over and over again with 10 different characters for 15-20 years. Once again, please listen to the lawyers who know much more about the law then you do. I have never wasted 1 nickel on a lawyer but have paid them thousands in my time. Always worth every damn penny. AND I actually do what they tell me..

Imagine that. listening to people who know more than you do... You should try it sometime.

Last edited by Fuddjcal; 06-07-2019 at 04:07 PM.
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  #64  
Old 06-07-2019, 04:15 PM
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I trim a card. I get it past PSA. I sell it, without disclosing that I trimmed it. Or my co-conspirator sells it for me knowing I trimmed it. If someone truly wants to argue that's not fraud, well, I give up, I'm not debating it any more. Nor am I debating that the federal mail and wire fraud statutes apply if I do this, repeatedly, using the mails or wires.
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  #65  
Old 06-07-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PowderedH2O View Post
I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?

I think a better analogy here using cars would be someone buying a car with 100,000 miles on it, rolling back to odometer (Ferris Bueller style) and then selling it again as a "Grandma driven special with only 15,000 miles on it" when in fact the engine has 100,000 miles on it.
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  #66  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:03 PM
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The actual act that is illegal is not the trimming of the card, or submitting it to PSA to try to get a number grade, or selling it. I don't know why folks continue to ask why these things are illegal and then act like they don't get it when someone explains fraud. The illegal part is when you do this over and over and DON'T DISCLOSE it to the buyers when you know the fact is the card is altered and doesn't deserve a number grade. This is fraud. Simple. This isn't a hard concept to grasp people. They are misrepresenting what they are selling and doing it on purpose to get more money than they should from buyers that are being duped. Over and over again. The actual trimming of the card isn't what the lawyers are saying is illegal. Submitting the trimmed card to a TPG is not what they are saying is illegal. Lying to the buyers to get record sales is where the fraud starts.
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  #67  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by PowderedH2O View Post
I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?
Here's why it's illegal:

Alteration of cards is considered a material fact when it comes to the value of those cards. Trimmed, recolored, whatever cards are deemed to be far less valuable by the vast majority of collectors. If a person is performing alteration and then selling the card to someone without disclosing the alteration, they have concealed a material fact relating to the value of the item. Knowingly withholding a piece of material information in a transaction like that is fraud.

In addition to that, when you purchase a PSA membership, or submit through them, you agree that do not have knowledge that the cards are altered. By knowingly submitting cards that have been altered, you are violating that agreement, potentially committing a fraudulent act against PSA since you are exposing them financially.

The second aspect might be a civil liability only, as opposed to criminal, not sure. The first one, however, is definitely a criminal violation.

To put it in simplistic terms: Gary Moser/PWCC are representing that they have, for example, an unaltered 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle for sale. However, they know it's altered. They are saying that they are selling one thing when they are selling something else. That's Fraud 101.
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  #68  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:20 PM
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That was the response I was requesting. Thanks for your courtesy. Nice to know someone can reply without rudeness or being condescending.
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  #69  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:57 PM
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That was the response I was requesting. Thanks for your courtesy. Nice to know someone can reply without rudeness or being condescending.
My apologies I did not mean to come across that way. In many threads I've explained this in detail and then people who don't know the law insist that I'm wrong, and it gets frustrating. I didn't mean to take that frustration out on you, I know you were simply trying to understand and not debating. My bad. Tabe said it well. Fraud is either the intentional misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact, and when you do that in connection with a sale in interstate commerce, it can be federal mail or wire fraud. It's the sale that makes it illegal; just altering the card isn't. That PSA slabbed the card is irrelevant, the seller still knows the card is altered and doesn't merit the grade. In other words, the negligence of another party doesn't cleanse the fraud.
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  #70  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:05 PM
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$75 for a PSA10. Did you know her at Duke?
I didnít. But I watched most of her games. Duke had some great teams back then with Coach G in charge.
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  #71  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:22 PM
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that people believe PSA will be paying out any kind of significant monies. They will fight to the death on a card by card basis with them in a staring role as the fox surrounded by nothing but the hens.
They call themselves (and charge a fee as) authenticators. If suddenly many cards that passed through their hands are proven to be altered, how can they not be accountable?
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:25 PM
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They call themselves (and charge a fee as) authenticators. If suddenly many cards that passed through their hands are proven to be altered, how can they not be accountable?
Because they almost uniformly refuse to pay despite their easily proven liability. They dare you to sue and most wonít. Itís almost unheard of to find a time that PSA has ever honored their guarantee without having its arm twisted.
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  #73  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:27 PM
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I trim a card. I get it past PSA. I sell it, without disclosing that I trimmed it. Or my co-conspirator sells it for me knowing I trimmed it. If someone truly wants to argue that's not fraud, well, I give up, I'm not debating it any more. Nor am I debating that the federal mail and wire fraud statutes apply if I do this, repeatedly, using the mails or wires.
Getting it past PSA is the biggest problem here that too many aren't talking about. I don't have cards graded, so I don't care...but many here are trusting PSA with their wallets and PSA is apparently no more capable of spotting a problem than you or I. They are "victims" (based on their response) not experts or authenticators. They are you. You pay for that?
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  #74  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:41 PM
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Because they almost uniformly refuse to pay despite their easily proven liability. They dare you to sue and most wonít. Itís almost unheard of to find a time that PSA has ever honored their guarantee without having its arm twisted.
That's unfortunate. Sounds like an insurance company.
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:57 PM
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That's unfortunate. Sounds like an insurance company.
Shit. We agree again. Suing carriers is what I do.
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  #76  
Old 06-08-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by PowderedH2O View Post
I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?
I worked in cars for a while too. While customers getting one over on the dealership wasn't common, it did happen.
The reason the dealership had no recourse in most cases was that a dealer was generally seen as an "expert" who should know better.
Also, most of the things you mention are considered entirely acceptable, and the cleaning, waxing and buffing as well as mechanical repairs would be done by the dealer anyway before resale. We did have one where the customer lied about the mileage when they filled out the title. We found out when we sold it and the registry kicked back the title transfer since the previous transfer had been at 80K and we showed 50K or so. Making the supposed actual mileage in the 150 range.

The opposite was also true. We had sold a couple reliants to a taxi company that added the roof lights then never made a payment. Dealership get them back and added a fake convertible roof on one and a weird reverse landau top on the other to hide the holes from the lights. One of the sales people sold one without disclosing that it had been a taxi. Private extended warranty caught it, legal action ensued briefly, and the place had to pay 3x damages.
Try selling an odd looking Reliant that you own for something like 18K Ö.

Short version, if I sell an altered card, I might be able to fall back on the "hey I had no idea" defense. (Probably less likely since I publickly state that I can probably tell, plus I'd just say "damn I missed that" and take the card back)
A large full time dealer and/or grading company can't hide behind cluelessness as they're the "experts" *

*I could be wrong about that, not being a lawyer
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Old 06-15-2019, 09:17 AM
cannonballsun cannonballsun is offline
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Default How do you think it all shakes out

I would say the card restoration/alteration business is way, way more widespread than we could guess.
In the SCD in 2008, they interviewed Dick Towle of Gone With The Stain. He said in 2008 that they had worked on 15,000 to 18,000 cards. That is over 10 years ago. They said that they started their company in 1993.
And that is only one company. I'm sure there are others out there.
They claim all their work is undetectable to card grading companies. I am sure many, many of those cards have been graded. Hopefully, cards that they worked on won't start disintegrating one day.
Until new technologies that can detect their work are discovered, I don't know what the grading companies can do
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Old 06-15-2019, 09:50 AM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
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Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
I'll guess the opposite end.

Law enforcement gets really involved. There are ALREADY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS of exposed cards by OVER 10 ALTERERS all using PWCC to launder their goods, plus the SSI company in Dallas.

PSA gets spun off from CLCT and is purchased. They take the SGC route and remove the guarantee for any cards prior to the buyout. Any claims under the current grade guarantee not covered will be subject to a class-action lawsuit, leading to a bankruptcy restructuring. All previously graded cards in the registry need to be reholdered/re-evaluated by new ownership to go back in the registry. PSA can survive, IMO, but if it does, it has to play this by the book and report to the public all known scammers, the cert numbers of questionable cards, and decertify them from the pop report/registry. If they don't, they lose the customer's confidence. Take the 1952 Topps Look-N-See. How can anyone trust that set registry anymore? 1953 Parkhurst? How many T206s has Gary worked/submitted? Without transparency in their process (opposite of the promised "internal investigation"), their big spenders SHOULD LOSE FAITH and should know that their registry competitors are gaining on them by fraud.

How does PSA continue to charge per card value, if their Grade Guarantee has no teeth? Beckett doesn't come with a promise, only expectation, but charges way less for hundred thousand dollar cards than PSA does. Is the Set Registry really still worth all the grading fees? Is public trust shattered?

Beckett customers, mostly younger and more in tune with the internet, realize there's no grade guarantee with their cards. They get together and file a class-action lawsuit, citing gross negligence. (Or is that a criminal crime? I'm not a lawyer) Beckett's already got major issues with their ownership group and leadership, and should lose the trust of the marketplace. Once the top cards stop dropping in price, it may be rapid. BGS Black Labels and Pristines will no longer be the crown jewels they used to be. Since they seem to have unfair grading practices (see the 100+ page thread at blowout), they could be criminally liable for fraud.

PWCC goes out of business. It just has to. Jail time for Brent is the only thing that makes sense. Surely there will be someone to fill the void. But PWCC is the enabler of all these "isolated bad actors."

The market corrects just like we were in a recession; I envision a 40% chop at the top. I think the low-mid end stays fairly constant, but the exponential growth curve for PSA 8/9/10 in vintage cards takes a beating. If it doesn't, PSA just goes about its business and Moser keeps destroying cardboard pictures with base ball men on them.

The watchdogs are no longer lazy, no longer have a defeatist attitude, no longer willing to sit on the sidelines and not rock the boat. And we're willing to push this as long as it takes to right the hobby. Like I said, I've already called in the FDLE to investigate the entire situation. I know others have contact their states. This will not be confined to the few, the proud, the too invested to speak up and do the right thing.
I completely agree with these statements. The Hobby probably should made a financial couse correction and this may aid in that for the good of the Hobby. It's the defeatist attitudes that believe nothing will happen. There's way too much money involved here. You're looking at 50 million just from pwcc in annual sales alone from 2010 to 2018. Possibly more from PSA and dont forget the forgery scandal -so yes, The FBI and SEC are looking into this. Why would anyone think that the government would let this ride? Because it's only Baseball cards? Hell no! It's a 5 billion dollar a year industry and a huge chunk of this falls under a publicly traded company regulated under the SEC.

Change has to happen. This Hobby has changed considerably since the days of Jefferson Burdick, Lionel Carter and Buck Barker, but it will continue to change weather or not PSA or PWCC are in it or not.

There are no garantees that this hobby is around in a generation or two, but the one of the ways it changes for the good is by being vigilant to fraud and by better education. Hobbyists and the Hobby may need to change their way of thinking and to alter their perceptions. Net 54 is a great site, and the collectors and dealers here have done some outstanding work on both educating and tipping off fraud, however it needs to be better advertisers.

Last edited by topcat61; 06-15-2019 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:21 AM
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I am impressed you know what the FBI and SEC are doing. I wish I did.
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:37 AM
Aj-hman Aj-hman is offline
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Default trifecta of shame

What do I have the power to control? My actions only.

PWCC: I will never again buy from pwcc and tell people I know what has been alleged.

Gary Moser: If what has been alleged is true his legacy will always be that of a scoundrel. Have you ever stepped in dog s**t at first you are annoyed. Then you smell it or track it inside........ that is one heck of a legacy.

PSA: THE GATE KEEPER! I no longer value their product and will not buy PSA graded cards. In the event they make every possible effort to improve practices and publish the list of alleged altered cards I will then look to them for services and start to trust their brand. In the card business the card grader is where the buck stops. In the mean time I will just estimate the grade myself assign a value and hope it is not altered.

VCP/Net54 and other PWCC advertisers: I know that when I first saw the posts on the message boards regarding the trifecta of shame and saw the pwcc advertisement I questioned the integrity of the site. I trust the integrity of this site based on how it is managed and am pleased it is available to use.

The Rest: I wish ebay had a block seller feature.

Last edited by Aj-hman; 06-15-2019 at 07:48 PM. Reason: typo
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  #81  
Old 06-15-2019, 11:40 AM
Yoda Yoda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aj-hman View Post
What do I have the power to control? My actions only.

PWCC: I will never again buy from pwcc and tell people I know what has been alleged.

Gary Moser: If what has been alleged is true his legacy will always be that of a scoundrel. Have you ever stepped in dog s**t at first you are annoyed. Then you smell it or track it inside........ that is one heck of a legacy.

PSA: THE GATE KEEPER! I no longer value their product and will not buy PSA graded cards. In the event they make very possible effort to improve practices and publish the list of alleged altered cards I will then look to them for services and start to trust their brand. In the card business the card grader is where the buck stops. In the mean time I will just estimate the grade myself assign a value and hope it is not altered.

VCP/Net54 and other PWCC advertisers: I know that when I first saw the posts on the message boards regarding the trifecta of shame and saw the pwcc advertisement I questioned the integrity of the site. I trust the integrity of this site based on how it is managed and am pleased it is available to use.

The Rest: I wish ebay had a block seller feature.
One thing I am pretty certain of and that is Brent and his wife had better toughen up their vocal cards to be ready at the National to respond/rationalize/explain to their many customers just what transpired with some of these high-value cards.
As for Moser, if I were him, I would head to Rio, carefully observe the half naked lovelies on the beach and "restore" a card of Pele from time to time.
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  #82  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:36 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
I agree.
I'll simply ask pleasantly or unpleasantly as I presume your original post to be purposely brief?



That asked, I think the biggest consequence of this will be necessarily beefed up security at the PWCC booth at the national.

Has anyone thought of printing up a 1 page intro to run off copies and hand out at the national? Perhaps any dealers who are set up and choose could have them at their tables to hand out?

I think the greatest opportunity for change out of this is through public relations - the more people that know - the greater "buying power" is at risk for the guilty players.

For those curious (I know I was) - I have attached a picture of Gary Moser - apparently from the NY area.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg gary-moser.jpg (47.5 KB, 263 views)
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  #83  
Old 06-15-2019, 03:02 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Originally Posted by wondo View Post
I'm taking a contrarian position. I can see SGC going away - either absorbed / acquired by CLCT or finally closing its doors ala GAI. PSA will flourish with a few bumps.

Moser will continue in some some form (albeit underground) as he has the past 35 years along with an unrelated army of doctors who beat the system.

PWCC will be the scapegoat, go away, perhaps pay the price. Or not.

I'll go on buying cards that I enjoy.
Respectfully why do you feel SGC will go away or be acquired by CLCT or Close itís doors all together?

Thanks
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  #84  
Old 06-15-2019, 03:09 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fballguy View Post
They call themselves (and charge a fee as) authenticators. If suddenly many cards that passed through their hands are proven to be altered, how can they not be accountable?
Because theyíre only rendering a opinion on said card. Itís said but seems lock tight proof...
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  #85  
Old 06-15-2019, 05:00 PM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I am impressed you know what the FBI and SEC are doing. I wish I did.
Sometimes it helps to have connections Pete. By the way, you've made some excellent observations on this and teach people about the laws.
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  #86  
Old 06-15-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by topcat61 View Post
Sometimes it helps to have connections Pete. By the way, you've made some excellent observations on this and teach people about the laws.
What the FBI is doing seems obvious but what about the SEC? The reserve?
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcv123 View Post
For those curious (I know I was) - I have attached a picture of Gary Moser - apparently from the NY area.
Reminds me of this guy.

image host
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  #88  
Old 06-16-2019, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
What the FBI is doing seems obvious but what about the SEC? The reserve?
Well, PWCC has tried to brand itself as a bank and lending institution.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
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  #89  
Old 06-16-2019, 06:43 AM
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Default You Tube

You may have seen this You Tube video titled - How to Fix or Repair your Corners before Grading BGS PSA. Repair your Cards with the Dr.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ipg51mjzTo&t=691s

or this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il5Qcu3AVYI

or this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYVdD6WTYYU

or this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKiMM8w4-Ug

There are many videos that show us how to repair damaged cards before sending them in for grading. How many of these cards are being caught by the TPG's? Probably not many. This isn't going away. It will probably get worse rather than better.
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T213-2 128 down 57 to go.
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  #90  
Old 06-16-2019, 01:32 PM
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Sadly, it's true.

Perhaps it's now a case of "Money trumps all" rather than "Stuff trumps all".
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  #91  
Old 06-16-2019, 01:48 PM
VintageVinnie VintageVinnie is offline
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Is SGC affected in all this, or is it just PSA and Beckett? I have most of my stuff graded with SGC.
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  #92  
Old 06-16-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageVinnie View Post
Is SGC affected in all this, or is it just PSA and Beckett? I have most of my stuff graded with SGC.
A few cards, but certainly less than 1% of whatís been outed.
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  #93  
Old 06-16-2019, 02:14 PM
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PWCC is more a PSA and Beckett outlet than an SGC outlet. SGC is more in AHs. If there is bad stuff out there, and there always is, it will be harder to trace IMO.
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  #94  
Old 06-16-2019, 03:12 PM
VintageVinnie VintageVinnie is offline
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Thanks Jeffrey and Peter, that's what I was thinking as well. I'm glad I've dealt with SGC exclusively. Very disturbing to say the least.
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