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  #1  
Old 11-07-2016, 04:33 PM
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Default Hall of Fame Announces "Old Timers" Ballot

The Hall of Fame has announced this year's old timers' ballot, though this is a "modern era" election, so they are not really old timers. Here is the list:

The 10 candidates on the Today’s Game Era Committee ballot are: Albert Belle, Will Clark, Davey Johnson, Orel Hershiser, Mark McGwire, Lou Piniella, John Schuerholz, Bud Selig, George Steinbrenner and Harold Baines. Any candidate who receives votes on at least 75 percent of all ballots cast will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as part of the Class of 2017 on July 30.

I vote for no one.
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2016, 04:39 PM
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I agree, none of these folks should be in the Hall.
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  #3  
Old 11-07-2016, 04:39 PM
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What an underwhelming group. Who picks these?
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  #4  
Old 11-07-2016, 04:40 PM
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Agree on no one.

From that era, I would've thought that Steve Garvey or Fred McGriff would be better choices than some of those guys.

Last edited by perezfan; 11-07-2016 at 04:45 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-07-2016, 04:45 PM
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This isn't April Fools Day is it ? I could see Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell, Jack Morris, Mickey Lolich etc. If these guys played in New York they would already be in the HOF.
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2016, 04:46 PM
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Surprised no one thinks Selig or Steinbrenner.

Stull, pretty weak "class".
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2016, 04:47 PM
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I think history will be kind to George Steinbrenner, but it may take another 20-30 years.
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2016, 04:48 PM
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My votes go to Steinbrenner and Belle.
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2016, 04:54 PM
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I suppose there's a case to be made for Steinbrenner, but I think there's a better case for Schuerholz, especially with Bobby Cox going in a couple of years ago. I can't muster any enthusiasm for Selig, and it's hard to imagine who his hard-core supporters would be, unless it's the same people who voted in Bowie Kuhn.
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  #10  
Old 11-07-2016, 05:00 PM
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What a joke. The HOF supposed to be the best of the best, not the best of the pretty good. Of all the borderline guys, not one of these guys has ever crossed my mind.
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  #11  
Old 11-07-2016, 05:05 PM
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Schuerholz and Steinbrenner are worthy admittees:

Schuerholz's GM career lasted from 1982-2007. His teams won two World Series, 6 pennants, and 15 division titles. Pretty solid for an executive career across two teams and two leagues.

Steinbrenner...what can you say about The Boss. During Steinbrenner's reign the Yankees won 7 World Series and 11 pennants. He was the most famous, and infamous, team owner of the postwar era. His only realistic comparisons were O'Malley and Veeck, and perhaps Charlie O had his tenure been longer.
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2016, 05:20 PM
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Also see this thread from the Autograph Forum side posted in early October when the Today"s Game ballot was released
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rans+committee
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2016, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
Schuerholz and Steinbrenner are worthy admittees:

Schuerholz's GM career lasted from 1982-2007. His teams won two World Series, 6 pennants, and 15 division titles. Pretty solid for an executive career across two teams and two leagues.

Steinbrenner...what can you say about The Boss. During Steinbrenner's reign the Yankees won 7 World Series and 11 pennants. He was the most famous, and infamous, team owner of the postwar era. His only realistic comparisons were O'Malley and Veeck, and perhaps Charlie O had his tenure been longer.
+1

As for players, how did they come up with Belle and Baines? Should have been more like Murphy and Raines...
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
Schuerholz and Steinbrenner are worthy admittees:

Schuerholz's GM career lasted from 1982-2007. His teams won two World Series, 6 pennants, and 15 division titles. Pretty solid for an executive career across two teams and two leagues.

Steinbrenner...what can you say about The Boss. During Steinbrenner's reign the Yankees won 7 World Series and 11 pennants. He was the most famous, and infamous, team owner of the postwar era. His only realistic comparisons were O'Malley and Veeck, and perhaps Charlie O had his tenure been longer.
nailed it.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2016, 05:42 PM
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+1

As for players, how did they come up with Belle and Baines? Should have been more like Murphy and Raines...
I believe Raines is still on the ballot and therefore not eligible for this 2nd chance ballot. The odds are pretty good he will be enshrined by the writers in 2017

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  #16  
Old 11-07-2016, 05:52 PM
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I definitely think Bud Selig should go in.

Now, before you get all hyped up, think about the positive (business-wise if no other way) changes he implemented.

MLB is vastly better than it was before Bud Selig. IMHO
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  #17  
Old 11-07-2016, 07:07 PM
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What a joke. The HOF supposed to be the best of the best, not the best of the pretty good. Of all the borderline guys, not one of these guys has ever crossed my mind.
Agree with this. Schuerholz is the only one on this list that even deserves consideration. There is no need to water down the HOF any more. As for those throwing out Trammell, Whitaker, Garvey, Murphy, etc. those guys are all modern era. This is for 1988 to present which is mostly going to be steroid users and nonplayers. This committee makes little sense at this point.
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  #18  
Old 11-07-2016, 07:18 PM
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I definitely think Bud Selig should go in.

Now, before you get all hyped up, think about the positive (business-wise if no other way) changes he implemented.

MLB is vastly better than it was before Bud Selig. IMHO
I think he ignored the obvious PED use for far too long to ever go in IMO.
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  #19  
Old 11-07-2016, 07:28 PM
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Personally, I'd like to see more recognition for non-players who contribute to the game. Not just broadcasters and managers. For example, Marvin Miller absolutely is integral to the story of the game and should be installed in the HOF ASAP.

I'd also like to see Sy Berger and Jefferson Burdick in there!
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  #20  
Old 11-07-2016, 08:01 PM
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I would think selig would be a lock, can't imagine anyone else getting close?
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  #21  
Old 11-07-2016, 08:30 PM
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I've never understood why the HOF and its voters seem to feel a need to vote people in every year. If there wasn't an induction every year, it would be more of an event in the years that there was.

I am of the opinion that the Hall is watered down as it is, and I don't grasp the concept that because a candidate only has X years left on the ballot, he's somehow more worthy of inclusion. In my opinion, Raines falls into this category. He was certainly a good ballplayer, but is he now more worthy of induction simply because he's about to drop off of the ballot? I also thought that Ron Santo's induction was a slap in the face (to Santo). It's as if the voters felt that since he had passed, he somehow became more worthy of induction.

I think that if there is any question as to whether a player should be in the Hall (be it his on-field performance, PEDs, criminal record, etc.), then he probably shouldn't be in the Hall. The only way this group should get into the Hall is the same way that most of us do: buy a ticket.
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  #22  
Old 11-07-2016, 08:49 PM
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God, if that's the list of potential candidates, why don't they just enshrine everybody who has ever played the game and just be done with it.
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  #23  
Old 11-07-2016, 08:55 PM
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I've never understood why the HOF and its voters seem to feel a need to vote people in every year. If there wasn't an induction every year, it would be more of an event in the years that there was.

I am of the opinion that the Hall is watered down as it is, and I don't grasp the concept that because a candidate only has X years left on the ballot, he's somehow more worthy of inclusion. In my opinion, Raines falls into this category. He was certainly a good ballplayer, but is he now more worthy of induction simply because he's about to drop off of the ballot? I also thought that Ron Santo's induction was a slap in the face (to Santo). It's as if the voters felt that since he had passed, he somehow became more worthy of induction.

I think that if there is any question as to whether a player should be in the Hall (be it his on-field performance, PEDs, criminal record, etc.), then he probably shouldn't be in the Hall. The only way this group should get into the Hall is the same way that most of us do: buy a ticket.
Santo's induction was a sad moment for me because, like you say, he apparently got more of a nod after death and nobody would have been more grateful than Ron to have been part of that celebration. Selig is knocked out for me based on his poor handling of ped's early on and also not fond of using the public to subsidize stadiums that no longer have affordable ticket pricing. However, he's been much better than most of his predecessors. The players on this ballet are in no way contenders in my opinion. I would like to see the HOF get back on a more elite track. *I'm never fond of armchair generals talking to me about their opinion of war/combat as there is only one way to truly have an opinion on it. Not that sports is anything comparable, but I do rely on the veterans committee to guide my opinion since I've never been more than a baseball spectator.
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  #24  
Old 11-07-2016, 08:56 PM
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Maybe Steinbrenner
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
Personally, I'd like to see more recognition for non-players who contribute to the game. Not just broadcasters and managers. For example, Marvin Miller absolutely is integral to the story of the game and should be installed in the HOF ASAP.

I'd also like to see Sy Berger and Jefferson Burdick in there!
Berger I could get behind. Burdick not so much, but there's no way in hell I'm praising the guy responsible for the $400 box seat.
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Old 11-07-2016, 09:19 PM
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The hall of fame is not watered down in my opinion. They've been playing major league ball for 147 years now and 18,918 men have played in the major leagues. There are only 217 major leaguers in the hall of fame. One out of 87.

It's really hard to get into the major leagues. It's really hard to succeed in the major leagues, and it's really, really hard to excel over a career in the major leagues. When people say players like Tim Raines do not belong in the hall of fame it boggles my mind.
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2016, 09:27 PM
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The hall of fame is not watered down in my opinion. They've been playing major league ball for 147 years now and 18,918 men have played in the major leagues. There are only 217 major leaguers in the hall of fame. One out of 87.

It's really hard to get into the major leagues. It's really hard to succeed in the major leagues, and it's really, really hard to excel over a career in the major leagues. When people say players like Tim Raines do not belong in the hall of fame it boggles my mind.
Agreed, with a caveat. It's safe to say the number of inductees is fine. It's just that a bunch of guys who are in shouldn't be, and a bunch of guys that should be aren't in.
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Old 11-07-2016, 09:46 PM
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Would never vote in Selig or Steinbrenner. Selig was the head of baseball during the steroid era when everyone knew what was going on and he let it go, then took zero blame for it. The guy in charge of the players who don't get in because of steroids is supposed to be rewarded for letting it happen? Hell no. He made a fortune off those players because he let it go as long as possible.

Steinbrenner shouldn't even be on the ballot. He was suspended from baseball for two years in 1974. He was banned permanently in 1990. He was also an owner during the steroid era, who happily paid steroid users extra money for their performance.

When the owners took none of the blame for that era, that was a cowardly move on their part. Everyone outside of baseball knew what was going on, do you really think any of the owners had no idea? They knew, they paid the players extra and they made a ton extra for themselves, then they threw the players under the bus and history has been way too kind to them.

It would be ridiculous to put the leader of the steroid era and an owner from that era with a two-year suspension and permanent ban on his record, in the Hall of Fame. It would make a mockery of common sense.
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  #29  
Old 11-07-2016, 09:48 PM
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Bud Lite? That's a joke, right?
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  #30  
Old 11-07-2016, 10:08 PM
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I think he ignored the obvious PED use for far too long to ever go in IMO.

We ALL did, Dan. And we all enjoyed the McGwire-to-Sosa-to-McGwire HR chase!

Financially, it was good for the game - though it is a good thing that it is over or, at least, not nearly so prevalent thanks in no small part to the new testing system that Selig helped put in place.


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Old 11-07-2016, 10:15 PM
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I really think Selig will get in, if not this year, eventually. Steroids or not, baseball grew more during his era than any other.

Belle was the scariest hitter of the 90's, but his career was too short. Or, to put it another way, his persona was so negative that voters won't overlook how short it was.
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Old 11-07-2016, 10:23 PM
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I really think Selig will get in, if not this year, eventually. Steroids or not, baseball grew more during his era than any other.

Belle was the scariest hitter of the 90's, but his career was too short. Or, to put it another way, his persona was so negative that voters won't overlook how short it was.
Albert Belle was a later version of Richie Allen - many parallels.


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Old 11-07-2016, 10:32 PM
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I believe Garvey is in a different grouping than McGriff, but McGriff would fit that group for sure.

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Agree on no one.

From that era, I would've thought that Steve Garvey or Fred McGriff would be better choices than some of those guys.
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  #34  
Old 11-07-2016, 10:50 PM
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Agreed, with a caveat. It's safe to say the number of inductees is fine. It's just that a bunch of guys who are in shouldn't be, and a bunch of guys that should be aren't in.
I won't argue that. The Veterans Committee is at fault for most of that.
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Old 11-07-2016, 11:25 PM
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I really think Selig will get in, if not this year, eventually. Steroids or not, baseball grew more during his era than any other.

Belle was the scariest hitter of the 90's, but his career was too short. Or, to put it another way, his persona was so negative that voters won't overlook how short it was.
Not because of anything that Selig did. From the cancelled World Series, to Steroids to the All Star game tie to making the All Star game count for World Series home field. His time on the job was a disaster.

Baseball has been declining in popularity over the last 25 years. Outside of the World Series, televised games are not even on the major networks anymore, but on niche cable channels. TV viewership is way down. Even with the Cubs winning the World Series, and huge game 7 viewership, average viewership was about half of what it was for the 1978 World Series and behind almost every year in the 80s and 90s. Viewership from 2008-15 was a disaster. I guess if Selig's job was to make owners money while damaging the game, he was successful, but that isn't hof worthy in my opinion.
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  #36  
Old 11-08-2016, 12:42 AM
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Would never vote in Selig or Steinbrenner. Selig was the head of baseball during the steroid era when everyone knew what was going on and he let it go, then took zero blame for it. The guy in charge of the players who don't get in because of steroids is supposed to be rewarded for letting it happen? Hell no. He made a fortune off those players because he let it go as long as possible.

Steinbrenner shouldn't even be on the ballot. He was suspended from baseball for two years in 1974. He was banned permanently in 1990. He was also an owner during the steroid era, who happily paid steroid users extra money for their performance.

When the owners took none of the blame for that era, that was a cowardly move on their part. Everyone outside of baseball knew what was going on, do you really think any of the owners had no idea? They knew, they paid the players extra and they made a ton extra for themselves, then they threw the players under the bus and history has been way too kind to them.

It would be ridiculous to put the leader of the steroid era and an owner from that era with a two-year suspension and permanent ban on his record, in the Hall of Fame. It would make a mockery of common sense.

Spot on.
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Old 11-08-2016, 01:41 AM
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Albert Belle belongs in. .295/40/130 - that's Albert every 162 games. That's almost on the level of Ruth. He played the same number of seasons as Kirby Puckett and was still an excellent hitter when he retired due to injury. The Hall says you gotta have 10 years to qualify. Albert has that. His numbers are certainly good enough. He belongs.
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Old 11-08-2016, 02:10 AM
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Unequivocally and unabashedly NO for Selig. To me there's nothing admirable or impressive about a guy who makes a bunch of rich guys richer. And while he spent that time doing that, steroids run through the sport like wildfire, a scrimmage now affects the world series, the game doesn't modernize one bit, doesn't carve out a national market, and worst of all Tim McCarver's "announcing skills" become hall of fame worthy on his watch. And as for the A's stadium debacle...cue the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark while Bud tells you he's got "top men" working on it..."top....men"
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Old 11-08-2016, 04:21 AM
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The only player I would consider is Belle, personality aside, he was a better player than some already there like Andre Dawson and Jim Rice.

Steinbrenner was a criminal, twice suspended by MLB, if he ever makes it, it would be a friggin joke.
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Old 11-08-2016, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Not because of anything that Selig did. From the cancelled World Series, to Steroids to the All Star game tie to making the All Star game count for World Series home field. His time on the job was a disaster.

Baseball has been declining in popularity over the last 25 years. Outside of the World Series, televised games are not even on the major networks anymore, but on niche cable channels. TV viewership is way down. Even with the Cubs winning the World Series, and huge game 7 viewership, average viewership was about half of what it was for the 1978 World Series and behind almost every year in the 80s and 90s. Viewership from 2008-15 was a disaster. I guess if Selig's job was to make owners money while damaging the game, he was successful, but that isn't hof worthy in my opinion.


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Old 11-08-2016, 07:12 AM
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I'm impressed at the raw hatred for Selig about steroids. Yes, I think they are and were wrong. But where was this venom in the 90's? I know forums like this didn't exist then, but can anyone show me anything written then about how awful they were? Any articles? Letters to the editor?

I paid a LOT of attention to baseball in the 90's, with the Tribe finally being good. With the exception of Rick Reilly's Sosa-chasing article, virtually NOBODY was complaining. Everybody could see it, but nobody complained. How many of you guys went to games? How many took up sides and cheered for McGwire or Sosa? Or Bonds or Clemens??

For about a decade in the 2000's, the big beat writer for Cleveland's newspaper would absolutely rail against steroids. Yet I read him every day in 1998, and he never said a word!! No writers I read did. And these people were in the clubhouses, were constantly around the players. I send this guy emails commending him on his firm stance 10 years after the fact, but never got a reply.

Selig and Fehr were the point people of the steroid era, sure, but anyone in and around baseball at the time was involved. If any of us who went to games, cheered the home runs, is calling out Selig now, I say we're hypocrites.
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Old 11-08-2016, 08:41 AM
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I really don't understand the Steinbrenner hate. Some of you guys collect Comiskey, how can you hate Steinbrenner and call him a criminal but collect Comiskey? The same goes for Tom Yawkey. The guy actively worked against integrating his team, so much so that they were the last team to integrate. He's in though, isn't he?

Last edited by packs; 11-08-2016 at 08:43 AM.
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  #43  
Old 11-08-2016, 08:48 AM
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The committee votes December 5th.

Anyone know who's on the committee?
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  #44  
Old 11-08-2016, 08:55 AM
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I am a die hard Blue Jay fan, and have a ferocious hatred of the Yankees, but, Mr. Steinbrenner is a HOFer. No Doubt.
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Old 11-08-2016, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earlywynnfan View Post
I'm impressed at the raw hatred for Selig about steroids. Yes, I think they are and were wrong. But where was this venom in the 90's? I know forums like this didn't exist then, but can anyone show me anything written then about how awful they were? Any articles? Letters to the editor?
For me, the hatred came on later. The home run chases were great to watch, even if I knew it wasn't on the level. I was smart enough to know what was going on and knew it wasn't a small percentage of players.

The problem with Selig came well afterwards when people started praising him for cleaning up baseball. He is the one who was in charge and let it get out of hand. He didn't start cleaning it up on his own, it had to be pushed on baseball to straighten up.

The fact that Selig and the owners went from making fortunes over these players while turning a blind eye, to acting shocked when they found out and getting zero blame, makes me mad. It's maddening because many people just went along with it and the players are the only ones getting hurt.

Him and the owners getting any praise for what they did would be like a parent being the getaway driver as their kids rob banks, getting 60% of what they stole, then getting a parent of the year award for letting them go to jail for life after they've already been sentenced.

In fact, I would vote in any steroid era player before I voted in an owner, league president or commissioner from that era. The players were the ones who were paid more and given the incentive to do steroids to keep up with the other players doing it. The people in charge encouraged that era, they deserve blame, not praise, and definitely not a Hall of Fame plaque, that's just ridiculous to even consider.

I'd like any guy on here with a little kid to try a Selig experiment. Give your kid crayons and tell them to color a wall in the house until they get caught and make sure you are sitting there watching them do it the whole time. Then tell your wife you had no idea what was going on, paint the wall, and then let me know how big your father of the year trophy is when you get it.
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Last edited by z28jd; 11-08-2016 at 09:09 AM.
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  #46  
Old 11-08-2016, 10:06 AM
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Not "lighthearted" Albert Belle? I am surprised he isn't in jail..
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  #47  
Old 11-08-2016, 10:23 AM
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Harold Baines


Batting average
.289

Hits
2,866

Home runs
384

Runs batted in
1,628

Solid stats and borderline HOF. Knee injuries early in his career probably cost him 3000 hits which would have gotten him in.
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Old 11-08-2016, 10:33 AM
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Well I can't speak on behalf of others but my dislike for used car salesman Bud Selig has been very consistent since he started. But I was a kid in the 90s...let me sift through my mom's garage and see if I have any fingerpainting or personal narratives that conveyed the message....
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Old 11-08-2016, 10:51 AM
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Something I think should be recognized re: Selig is how much harder he made it for regular people to attend a game as a family. Under his watch 19 publicly funded stadiums were built. It now costs an average of $77 for 2 people to attend a game. In 1993 it cost a family of 4 $91 to attend a game.
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Old 11-08-2016, 11:05 AM
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I would not be aghast if most of those guys would get in. I would not be offended if not. Davey Johnson and Pinella are sort of a Red Schoendienst type, though I think lesser, who had some accomplishments as both players and managers. Baines and Belle fit fine statistically. If your bottom measuring stick is Jim Bottomley and High Pockets Kelly, maybe there's a place for Clark...McGwire defined an era that was both glorious and tragic... I would be happy if here was not an executive in the hall. It is of no interest to me.
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