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  #1  
Old 09-15-2014, 12:37 PM
EVAJOY91 EVAJOY91 is offline
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Default Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service

NET54 MEMBERS, I POSTED BACK IN JULY A MAGNIFICENT SHOELESS JOE JACKSON PANORAMIC MILITARY PHOTOGRAPH. I SINCE HAVE CONSIGNED TO HUGGING & SCOTT FOR THEIR UPCOMING AUCTION (SEPT 29- OCT 29). THERE WERE SOME CONFUSION AS TO JACKSON'S SERVICE IN WW I. I'M HERE TO GET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. HERE'S A LINK WITH THE FULL DOCUMENTATION OF JACKSON'S SERVICE.
http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/7afaa6b2

JACKSON PLAYED IN ONLY 17 GAMES IN 1918. HE WAS ORDERED FOR INDUCTION. JACKSON AVOIDED BATTLE. HIS SERVICE TO THE US MILITARY WAS TO BUILD BATTLESHIPS. JACKSON DIDN'T MISS THE ENTIRE 1918 BASEBALL SEASON TO TAKE A JOB BUILDING BATTLESHIPS UNLESS HE WAS ORDERED TO DO SO BY THE US GOVERNMENT.

FINAL NOTE:

FACIAL COMPARISON ON JOE JACKSON PANORAMIC MILITARY PHOTOGRAPH WITH KNOWN 1917, 1918 AND 1919 PHOTOS OF HIM IN A CHICAGO WHITE SOX UNIFORM IS AN EXACT MATCH. JACKSON'S NOSE AND "BUMP ON CHIN" MATCH PERFECT. ANY AND ALL QUESTIONS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED TO ME AT MY EMAIL. I HAVE FORWARDED MY RESEARCH WITH FULL DOCUMENTATION TO THE NECESSARY PARTIES INVOLVED IN MAKING SOME FALSE ACCUSATIONS ON THIS SHOELESS JOE JACKSON PANORAMIC MILITARY PHOTO.

PHOTO MATCH PHOTOS ATTACHED: NOSE AND "BUMP ON JACKSON'S CHIN" ARE A PERFECT MATCH. "EYES ANS EYEBROWS" A PERFECT MATCH. THANK YOU FOR ALL NET54 MEMBERS FOR YOUR HELP.THANKS AGAIN. MIKE
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File Type: jpg IMG_1672.jpg (90.3 KB, 771 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2063.jpg (78.5 KB, 767 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1682.jpg (60.2 KB, 734 views)
File Type: jpg joe-jackson.0_standard_730.0.jpg (22.7 KB, 733 views)

Last edited by EVAJOY91; 09-15-2014 at 03:47 PM. Reason: PHOTO MATCH ON SHOELESS JOE JACKSON MILITARY PHOTO
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  #2  
Old 09-15-2014, 12:44 PM
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Congratulations, youre filthy rich!
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  #3  
Old 09-15-2014, 12:48 PM
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I'd be interested to read the military service documentation. The SABR biography you linked to just confirms what every book I've read about him says - he was ostracized by the press and White Sox owner for avoiding serving in the war and first getting a deferment and then a baseball job with a ship builder. Did I miss the Army part?

When was he in the Army and what units did he serve with? Can you list what the writing is on the top of the photo? Is it dated? I can make out Camp Meade but I'd like to know what the rest is because then you may be able to research the unit or class the photo is from, then get Jackson's record from that.
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Old 09-15-2014, 12:51 PM
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Ok, Huggins & Scott has the text for the top of the picture: “Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board” on December 4, 1918 at Camp Meade, MD."
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  #5  
Old 09-15-2014, 01:09 PM
EVAJOY91 EVAJOY91 is offline
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Default Getting the record straight shoeless joe jackson military service

YES, YOU MISSED THIS. JACKSON PLAYED IN ONLY 17 GAMES IN 1918. HE THEN WAS ORDERED FOR INDUCTION. INSTEAD OF GETTING A GUN AND GO TO FIGHT OVERSEAS HE WAS GIVEN A JOB TO BUILD BATTLESHIPS. JACKSON DIDN'T LEAVE THE GAME OF BASEBALL AFTER ONLY 17 GAMES TO TAKE A JOB BUILDING BATTLESHIPS IF HE WAS NOT ORDERED TO DO SO BY THE US GOVERNMENT. THIS WAS HIS SERVICE TO THE COUNTRY AT WAR. HE WAS IN THE MILITARY AND WAS severely criticized FOR NOT GOING OUT TO FIGHT.
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Last edited by EVAJOY91; 09-15-2014 at 01:30 PM. Reason: SHOELESS JOE JACKSON CLOSEUP PHOTO
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  #6  
Old 09-15-2014, 02:54 PM
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Default More on Jackson

http://sabr.org/research/delaware-ri...ng-league-1918
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  #7  
Old 09-15-2014, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 View Post
FACIAL COMPARISON ON JOE JACKSON PANORAMIC MILITARY PHOTOGRAPH WITH KNOWN 1917, 1918 AND 1919 PHOTOS OF HIM IN A CHICAGO WHITE SOX UNIFORM IS AN EXACT MATCH. JACKSON'S NOSE AND "BUMP ON CHIN" MATCH PERFECT. PHOTO MATCH PHOTOS ATTACHED: NOSE AND "BUMP ON JACKSON'S CHIN" ARE A PERFECT MATCH. "EYES ANS EYEBROWS" A PERFECT MATCH. THANK YOU FOR ALL NET54 MEMBERS FOR YOUR HELP.THANKS AGAIN. MIKE
I am not convinced. All we can be certain of is that what you have posted is not clear enough to support your claims of PERFECT MATCH." "EYES AND EYEBROWS" are just a blur. Higher res please.

Last edited by bmarlowe1; 09-15-2014 at 04:23 PM.
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  #8  
Old 09-15-2014, 04:33 PM
Dave Grob Dave Grob is offline
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Default Joe Jackson Military Service

I think you will be very hard pressed to find documentary evidence of Joe Jackson ever serving in uniform. Being ordered for induction did not equate to military service in uniform at this time. It meant, in accordance with the “work or fight policy” that Jackson was required to find employment directly related to supporting and advancing the war effort or join the uniformed ranks. “Being ordered for induction” meant that he was found physically fit and without any sort of other exemption that would have allowed him another option other than military service or, as stated above, to find employment directly related to supporting and advancing the war effort.

With respect to “being ordered to build ships”, this would not have been an order as this work was carried out in ship yards not under the control or supervision of the United States Army, and certainly not by the Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board” on December 4, 1918 at Camp Meade, MD.

If you research and look at the July 1918 edition of Baseball Magazine you will find:

“Joe Jackson was the most noted player levied on by the draft during May—and, as already remarked, decided to go to a war-helping plant instead of active service”.

Or the December 1918 edition of Baseball Magazine (page 81) you will find reference to Jackson “building ships” and playing ball for the Harlan Shipbuilding Plant in Wilmington, Delaware.

I suspect that a deep dive into local contemporary newspapers would yield similar information that would flesh out the time line. Nice vintage photographic but I don’t think objective source information supports it being Joe Jackson.

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  #9  
Old 09-15-2014, 04:39 PM
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The chin and ears are wrong. I'm surprised Huggins and Scott would take this, given that it's almost pure speculation, there is not i.d. on the picture and there isn't a facial match.
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  #10  
Old 09-15-2014, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Grob View Post
I suspect that a deep dive into local contemporary newspapers would yield similar information that would flesh out the time line. Nice vintage photographic but I don’t think objective source information supports it being Joe Jackson.

Dave Grob
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Here's some from the Delmarva Star:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=801%2C4654021
Just a mention of Joe Jackson being a spectator. Chief Bender was pitching, though.

The June 2nd paper seems to be the first box score I see Jackson's name. I don't see them making a big deal about him, though.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...1283%2C6992692

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=1617,303441

Last edited by DaClyde; 09-15-2014 at 05:08 PM.
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  #11  
Old 09-15-2014, 05:09 PM
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Default Joe Jackson Never Served In The U.S. Army

Joe Jackson never served in the U.S. Army or ANY other branch of service for THIS or any other country. Let me clarify that a bit, the man we know as Shoeless Joe Jackson NEVER served in the military, granted, there were probably more than a few "Joe Jackson's" that served this great country, but the fellow from South Carolina with incredible baseball skills was not one of them. The order to Fight or Go to Work In Support of the War was given in 1918 and Joe Jackson was ordered to report to Greenville, SC, (his local draft board), which he did and he was granted an exemption due to he was the sole support for his mother, brothers and sisters and his wife Katie (Joe never was listed as a Class One in the draft due to his sole provider status). That meant Joe would need to go to work in support of the war effort, which he did in May of 1918. He went to work for the Harlan and Hollingsworth Shipbuilders in Wilmington, DE (very well documented I might add). He worked in the shipyards and played baseball for the company team (see the team photo here: http://www.blackbetsy.com/imagefarm/...-1918-auto.jpg). Joe is 9th man from left standing. He was not a slacker (see article about him: http://www.blackbetsy.com/imagefarm/...o_date-850.jpg). By all accounts he was back in Savannah, GA by December of 1918 and possibly getting ready to make his return to the big leagues for the 1919 season. Unless someone / anyone can bring me IRON CLAD provenance on this photo, I'm simply gonna have to cry BULLS***. Bottom line folks, it ain't Shoeless Joe Jackson.

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  #12  
Old 09-15-2014, 05:19 PM
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LOL Huggins and Scott even lists "Bump on chin and nose are a match".

Last edited by yanks12025; 09-15-2014 at 05:20 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-15-2014, 05:29 PM
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Default Wishful thinking

The OP seems to have a terminal case of "wishful thinking". Hoping that items of a generic sort are actually associated with big names (teams or players). I wish the OP best of luck but it is getting a tad tiresome:

- "Schalk" Sox pants - generic any team pants
- Crescent glove - softball glove
- Boston Americans photo.....not
- Amos R. Photo....not
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  #14  
Old 09-15-2014, 05:37 PM
EVAJOY91 EVAJOY91 is offline
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Default Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service

DAVE, JOE SERVED THE US GOVERNMENT THROUGH HIS WORK BUILDING BATTLESHIP. THAT IS DOCUMENTED AND IS FACT. ANOTHER FACT IS HE PLAYED BASEBALL IN THE SUMMER OF 1918 IN THE hastily assembled factory circuit, the Bethlehem Steel League AND NOT IN THE MAJOR LEAGUE FOR THE WHITE SOX. THE BASEBALL SEASON ENDED IN OCTOBER 1918 AND JACKSON DIDN'T RETURN TO BUILDING BATTLESHIPS BUT DID TOUR MILITARY BASES ON THE EAST COAST. IT'S NO WONDER THIS PHOTO OF JOE JACKSON EXIST. IT'S HIM IN THE PHOTO AND THE PHOTO MATCH IS FROM JACKSON IN WHITE SOX UNIFORM IN 1918 SPRING TRAINING. IT'S SHOELESS JOE JACKSON IN THE PANORAMIC MILITARY PHOTOGRAPH. HOW AND WHY HE'S AT FORT MEADE, MD ON DECEMBER 4, DOESN'T DISPUTE THE FACT THAT HE IS THE ONE IN THE PHOTO.
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  #15  
Old 09-15-2014, 05:40 PM
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This is weird. The OP links to a SABR bio of Jackson, but even this reference refutes his claim about Jackson.

From the linked SABR reference

"The White Sox were rocked by the entry of the United States into World War I. Several Chicago players enlisted in the military, while others were drafted in the early months of 1918. Joe, as a married man, was granted a deferment by his hometown draft board in Greenville, South Carolina, but after Jackson played 17 games with the White Sox the board reversed its decision and ordered him to report for induction. Instead, Jackson found employment at a Delaware shipyard, where he helped build battleships and played ball in a hastily assembled factory circuit, the Bethlehem Steel League. Jackson was the first prominent player to avoid the draft by opting for war work, for which he was severely criticized in the sporting press, especially in Chicago. He won the factory league batting title with a .371 average, but the controversy permanently damaged his relationships with the Chicago sportswriters."

Notice, it doesn't say he worked for or was a member of the Army or Armed Forces. It states that instead of the military, he got a job at a Delaware shipyard.

Seems pretty clear that he was not in the military, so he wouldn't be in that photo.
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Last edited by Lordstan; 09-15-2014 at 05:42 PM.
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  #16  
Old 09-15-2014, 05:42 PM
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The SHOUTING isn't very convincing, either...
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yanks12025 View Post
LOL Huggins and Scott even lists "Bump on chin and nose are a match".
...and none of it is a match. I have a mole on my chin, but that doesn't make my chin a match with someone else who has a mole on theirs.

We have had so many of these "I wish this was [insert famous baseball player name here]" threads that none of it generally surprises me, but the auction houses should know better. I've never understood why the big auction houses don't hire someone like one of us, to simply go over items before they end up in their catalog (online or hard-copy), and throw up a red flag for things like this. It's not just H&S - you see these kind of things from most of the AH's.
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:44 PM
Econteachert205 Econteachert205 is offline
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Jaw doesn't look close to me.
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
...and none of it is a match. I have a mole on my chin, but that doesn't make my chin a match with someone else who has a mole on theirs.

We have had so many of these "I wish this was [insert famous baseball player name here]" threads that none of it generally surprises me, but the auction houses should know better. I've never understood why the big auction houses don't hire someone like one of us, to simply go over items before they end up in their catalog (online or hard-copy), and throw up a red flag for things like this. It's not just H&S - you see these kind of things from most of the AH's.
Agreed.
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:52 PM
EVAJOY91 EVAJOY91 is offline
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Default Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service

Much research went into this photograph. Other photos were used. 1917, 1918 and 1919 photos were matched with this one. Bump on chin, exact on all photos matched to this photo. Nose and eyebrows are a match. Similar side burns and shape of face. Answering your question on his service in the military. I ask you a question: Joe jackson started the season playing ball for the chicago white sox, . After 17 games he decided to take a less paying job for the us government building battleships that he was under qualified to do so. Would you not call this military service that he was instructed to do? It certainly was not voluntary. I would call this as service for the us military during ww i! Wouldn't you?

Last edited by EVAJOY91; 09-15-2014 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 09-15-2014, 06:05 PM
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I was just looking at the photos. The man on the left has and indentation in the outside shape of his ear. the man on the right does not.
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Old 09-15-2014, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 View Post
I ask you a question: Joe jackson started the season playing ball for the chicago white sox, . After 17 games he decided to take a less paying job for the us government building battleships that he was under qualified to do so. Would you not call this military service that he was instructed to do? It certainly was not voluntary. I would call this as service for the us military during ww i! Wouldn't you?
No. I would not call that military service. Plenty of people work for companies that have government contracts. Companies like Boeing or Grumman are perfect examples. The people who are employed by these companies work for a PRIVATE company. The only relationship the individual has to the government is that the things they make are sold to it. This is not now, nor has it ever been, considered military service. Joe Jackson worked for a privately owned shipbuilder who sold their products to the US military. That's it. He was never a soldier, so has no reason to be and should not be in a soldier's uniform, especially in a formal photo like this one.
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Old 09-15-2014, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgwirecom View Post
I was just looking at the photos. The man on the left has and indentation in the outside shape of his ear. the man on the right does not.
Nice catch on the ear. Still would love to see Marlowe dissect too. I learned a ton from his previous works here.
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Old 09-15-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Grob View Post
I think you will be very hard pressed to find documentary evidence of Joe Jackson ever serving in uniform. Being ordered for induction did not equate to military service in uniform at this time. It meant, in accordance with the “work or fight policy” that Jackson was required to find employment directly related to supporting and advancing the war effort or join the uniformed ranks. “Being ordered for induction” meant that he was found physically fit and without any sort of other exemption that would have allowed him another option other than military service or, as stated above, to find employment directly related to supporting and advancing the war effort.

With respect to “being ordered to build ships”, this would not have been an order as this work was carried out in ship yards not under the control or supervision of the United States Army, and certainly not by the Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board” on December 4, 1918 at Camp Meade, MD.

If you research and look at the July 1918 edition of Baseball Magazine you will find:

“Joe Jackson was the most noted player levied on by the draft during May—and, as already remarked, decided to go to a war-helping plant instead of active service”.

Or the December 1918 edition of Baseball Magazine (page 81) you will find reference to Jackson “building ships” and playing ball for the Harlan Shipbuilding Plant in Wilmington, Delaware.

I suspect that a deep dive into local contemporary newspapers would yield similar information that would flesh out the time line. Nice vintage photographic but I don’t think objective source information supports it being Joe Jackson.

Dave Grob
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One thing we cannot do is say that he is "in uniform" in this picture. He is one only a handful of the 173 people in an overcoat (while most are in full uniform). He is wearing a hat, but that could have been given to him for the purpose of the photo. We are running this photo because we believe it is "Shoeless" Joe Jackson. There is evidence to support that he toured various military operations in and around the Mid-Atlantic area following his tenure in the Bethlehem Steel League and prior to Spring Training of 1919.
The photo is certainly a type 1 period photo from Camp Meade, MD and it's dated December 4, 1918.

I would be curious if Mike Nola has any documentation showing that Jackson was back in South Carolina by early December, however I would suspect that would be very difficult to obtain. It is in our opinion that the man in the back of that photograph is Joe Jackson; hence we are offering it as such.
thanks,
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Old 09-15-2014, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hugginsandscott View Post
I would be curious if Mike Nola has any documentation showing that Jackson was back in South Carolina by early December, however I would suspect that would be very difficult to obtain. It is in our opinion that the man in the back of that photograph is Joe Jackson; hence we are offering it as such.
thanks,
Josh Wulkan
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Josh - you guys should know better. In any case, the crappy scan posted by the OP is just good enough to show the distinctively different ear shape (right ear - viewer's left) - this tells us that it can't possibly be Jackson - end of story (at least it should be).

I challenge you to post a nice hi-res of the face and then I'll tell you what else is wrong with it (though once you have an ear mismatch, nothing else matters). Neither you nor the OP have any idea as to how to do this.
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File Type: jpg 0 Joe Jackson 62250.jpg (52.4 KB, 505 views)

Last edited by bmarlowe1; 09-15-2014 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 09-15-2014, 07:27 PM
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This method of 'proof' would get you a reprimand from a junior high school math or science teacher.

So all you have to do is go with the idea that there is evidence that Joe Jackson 'might' have been touring military installations in the Mid-Atlantic at a particular time, then locate military photos from that period and area, then find someone who resembles Jackson....and it becomes Jackson...because no one can prove that Jackson was in a different location at the time that photo was taken?

Besides failing the very general test of 'Does it even look like Jackson?', failing the more specific test of facial characteristics;e.g-chin and ear fail, you are also failing to deliver any evidence that he WAS there; instead, asking for proof that he was not?!?

Last edited by Runscott; 09-15-2014 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 09-15-2014, 07:58 PM
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The ear is a smoking gun for me. Plus that jawline at the chin.

Last edited by Econteachert205; 09-15-2014 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 09-15-2014, 08:03 PM
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Josh,
First off, I have to say that I like your auction House. Though I have never bid, I have been tempted on numerous occasions, but had to hold off due to other factors.
I am disappointed that you would take this stance. Beside the mismatched ear, The photo clearly states "Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board. Why would a visiting baseball star be included in an official photo? I mean, I could see an informal group photo with a bunch of soldiers, but an official staff photo? Seems a bit far fetched to me. On top of that, he is buried in the back. If you had a star like him coming to visit your group and you wanted to take a photo, why would you hide him in the back dressed like everyone else? I think they would put him front and center to show off that the group met that star.

All that aside, the ear doesn't match. To quote myself from another thread, as it bears repeating "The one thing main point that I learned about facial recognition by watching Mark(Bmarlowe) go through his facial analysis is this. It doesn't matter how many parts of the face do match, if one, and it needs to be only one, part doesn't match, it's not the same person. The exceptions are differences that can be explained by age, illness/surgery/injury, or weight gain."
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  #29  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Lordstan View Post
Josh,
First off, I have to say that I like your auction House. Though I have never bid, I have been tempted on numerous occasions, but had to hold off due to other factors.
I am disappointed that you would take this stance. Beside the mismatched ear, The photo clearly states "Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board. Why would a visiting baseball star be included in an official photo? I mean, I could see an informal group photo with a bunch of soldiers, but an official staff photo? Seems a bit far fetched to me. On top of that, he is buried in the back. If you had a star like him coming to visit your group and you wanted to take a photo, why would you hide him in the back dressed like everyone else? I think they would put him front and center to show off that the group met that star.

All that aside, the ear doesn't match. To quote myself from another thread, as it bears repeating "The one thing main point that I learned about facial recognition by watching Mark(Bmarlowe) go through his facial analysis is this. It doesn't matter how many parts of the face do match, if one, and it needs to be only one, part doesn't match, it's not the same person. The exceptions are differences that can be explained by age, illness/surgery/injury, or weight gain."
I thought it was common knowledge that Joe Jackson had some plastic surgery done during this time period, guess he wanted to change his ears.... lol
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Old 09-15-2014, 08:34 PM
wonkaticket wonkaticket is offline
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http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77105

Here's a nice one, yeah this is Walker as much as it Jackie Robinson, classic Huggins & Scott I don't need ask Mark if this is Moses.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77099

As for Jackson photo above who knows I'm with Mark not thinking it's Jackson. How about this Jackson? I thought these were fantasy items proved to be not good long ago?

Last edited by wonkaticket; 09-15-2014 at 08:42 PM.
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  #31  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:37 PM
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Ugghhhh

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  #32  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:51 PM
EVAJOY91 EVAJOY91 is offline
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Default Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe

To all who responded. What i find very disappointing is that this shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo was first posted back in july. It's hard for me to believe that not one who responded today didn't see the original post in july. I have 5 other photos which was used for photo comparison. They were from 1917, 1918 and 1919. All show the bump on the chin. The nose is exact haircut and eyebrows are a match. I think a good pair of glasses are needed here. I have been working all day today as i have back in july getting 100% agreement with this photo. This jackson panoramic was at this years national. Bill goodwin, ha auction and legendary auctions looked at the photos. All agreed that they believed this to be jackson. Today, my wife was at home with 15 women. She was giving a west german mid century vase party to where the women who attended were able to buy her collection of vases. After all this confusion i waited to the end of her party and asked the 15 woman to look at each photo i presented to them on my mac computer. I asked each woman if the man in photo #1 in the top hat looked like the man in the baseball uniform. All 15 woman said yes. "they were the same person" all the woman heard of shoeless joe jackson but only 2 had ever saw a photo of him. I told them after all agreed that the two photos were of the same man. Again, opinions are objective. But when you get 13 woman who had never seen a photograph of joe jackson and when you asked them (15) to look at each man in both photos for comparisons and they all agree that they were the same person well, what more can be said?
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  #33  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:52 PM
Dave Grob Dave Grob is offline
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Default Camp Meade 1918

Interesting articles on the influenza epidemic at Camp Meade and the surrounding area at this time. This might provide some context to the significance/purpose of the photo identified as:

“Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board” on December 4, 1918 at Camp Meade, MD."

http://www.influenzaarchive.org/citi...altimore.html#

http://www.flu.gov/pandemic/history/...east/maryland/

http://magazine.jhsph.edu/2004/fall/prologues/

Folks can decide for themselves if this might have been something that either dissuaded or brought Joe Jackson to Camp Meade at this time as they continue to evaluate for themselves if they believe or not he is the same individual identified as such in the photograph.

Dave Grob
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  #34  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:58 PM
EVAJOY91 EVAJOY91 is offline
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Default Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe

Another photo used for photo match. This photo is from 1917.
Take a look. Yes, put a top hat like the one jackson is wearing in the panoramic photograph. Exact match!
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File Type: jpg joe-jackson-1917-700.jpg (74.4 KB, 457 views)
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  #35  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:03 PM
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CW CW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 View Post
To all who responded. What i find very disappointing is that this shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo was first posted back in july. It's hard for me to believe that not one who responded today didn't see the original post in july. I have 5 other photos which was used for photo comparison. They were from 1917, 1918 and 1919. All show the bump on the chin. The nose is exact haircut and eyebrows are a match. I think a good pair of glasses are needed here. I have been working all day today as i have back in july getting 100% agreement with this photo.
The fact that you do not even mention the ears of the subject in multiple posts shows that you really have zero knowledge in the field of facial recognition. Repeating the same thing numerous times does not make it true. Your only disappointment should be with the final realized price on your piece (assuming H&S are dumb enough to run it to fruition) which will be severely lower than expected.

Once Mark (bmarlowe1) states his educated opinion on this matter, it's pretty much case closed. Trust me on this. You are starting to embarrass yourself. Mark knows his shit, and the man has pretty much stated that it is not Shoeless Joe.

Ah, how the lure of a quick buck will make people stoop to desperate measures. This would apply to both the consignor and the auction house.

Also, maybe I'm off here, but shouldn't the OP have his/her full name out there?

Last edited by CW; 09-15-2014 at 09:08 PM.
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  #36  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:07 PM
wonkaticket wonkaticket is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 View Post
To all who responded. What i find very disappointing is that this shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo was first posted back in july. It's hard for me to believe that not one who responded today didn't see the original post in july. I have 5 other photos which was used for photo comparison. They were from 1917, 1918 and 1919. All show the bump on the chin. The nose is exact haircut and eyebrows are a match. I think a good pair of glasses are needed here. I have been working all day today as i have back in july getting 100% agreement with this photo. This jackson panoramic was at this years national. Bill goodwin, ha auction and legendary auctions looked at the photos. All agreed that they believed this to be jackson. Today, my wife was at home with 15 women. She was giving a west german mid century vase party to where the women who attended were able to buy her collection of vases. After all this confusion i waited to the end of her party and asked the 15 woman to look at each photo i presented to them on my mac computer. I asked each woman if the man in photo #1 in the top hat looked like the man in the baseball uniform. All 15 woman said yes. "they were the same person" all the woman heard of shoeless joe jackson but only 2 had ever saw a photo of him. I told them after all agreed that the two photos were of the same man. Again, opinions are objective. But when you get 13 woman who had never seen a photograph of joe jackson and when you asked them (15) to look at each man in both photos for comparisons and they all agree that they were the same person well, what more can be said?
You're correct it was posted and was a small pic if I remember, it was also posted in a "show" your display items type thread so most wouldn't have piled on or given much thought I know I didn't. I think I might have even said neat item etc.

Now that it's for sale and with big pictures, and claims it's going to be inspected a bit more.

This is like when you hyped your overprint T206. You got folks talking looking to help your sale/consignment. Sadly the talking here on this item isn't 100% it's cool good luck as it was with the T206.

Last edited by wonkaticket; 09-15-2014 at 09:14 PM.
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  #37  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:11 PM
wonkaticket wonkaticket is offline
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Mark, I have question for you and need your photo skills to help me. I have a photo I think is Moses Fleetwood Walker I would like to sell to H&S, can you let me know if it's him...looks a bit like him.

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  #38  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:16 PM
EVAJOY91 EVAJOY91 is offline
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Default Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe

Here's another photo of shoeless joe jackson profile. Again, put a top hat exactly like the one joe is wearing in the military panoramic photograph. Same face i see. What i'm trying to show that lots of hours went into this back in july and i'm so surprise no one back then or at the national who looked at this photo expressed disagreement. So little documents were kept back in the early part of the 20th century. The military kept even less. We all are of agreement that jackson was drafted into the military as many other ball players, we all agree that he took a job approved by the government for his induction. This was done for ball players who didn't want to fight, so they went to work. We all are in agreement that jackson played baseball till sept, 1918. Why is it so hard to believe that this famous ball player didn't visit military bases on the east coast which were very close to where his teams toured played and take a photograph with the solders. Ted williams, joe dimaggio and others ball players took photographs with solders while they were in service and many took photos when they visited military bases after their playing careers. Enough said, you don't have to bid ont the photograph but please present much more then what i have been reading today.
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File Type: jpg joes_story_header_2.jpg (34.8 KB, 446 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1682 copy.jpg (60.2 KB, 446 views)
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  #39  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:17 PM
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bmarlowe1 bmarlowe1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 View Post
To all who responded. What i find very disappointing is ....... 5 other photos which was used for photo comparison. They were from 1917, 1918 and 1919. All show the bump on the chin. The nose is exact haircut and eyebrows are a match. I think a good pair of glasses are needed here.
EVAJOY91 - What you don't understand (and perhaps Josh did not realize) is that Huggins & Scott recently hired me to identify faces in an early baseball photo. They didn't hire hire you (nor did they apparently leave to to Josh). Why do you think that is the case? (I'm thinking they may not do it again )

As for the "Fleet Walker" photo mentioned above by Wonka (below far left), lot 237, which not surprisingly also originated with EVAJOY91, http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=190922 - obviously not 19thC uniforms, and more obviously not Walker:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 0 Untitled-1.jpg (53.1 KB, 440 views)
File Type: jpg Fleetwood Walker Syracuse IA 1888c leg 112662i.jpg (41.2 KB, 440 views)
File Type: jpg Fleet Walker amazon.jpg (46.2 KB, 440 views)

Last edited by bmarlowe1; 09-15-2014 at 09:49 PM.
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  #40  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:37 PM
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I asked my wife who has not heard of Shoeless Joe but has heard of Joe Dimaggio btw, to look at the images and didn't share my opinion. She is a a photographer and visual artist, and is just completing her MA in fine art studies (she has a great eye for detail and is smart....no taste in men....but that is another story!).

Katie (my wife) says "the solider has a flatter, more rugged jaw line that the pics of the baseball player" and "the soldier had a cleft or dimpled chin, noticeable even in the low res image, while the baseball player has a convex or protruding area on his chin". "Not the same individual".

Katie also correctly indicated that the hat the soldier is wearing is not a "top hat" but is a "campaign hat".
A campaign hat (also campaign cover, drill instructor cover, drill sergeant hat, lemon squeezer, Montana Peak, Mountie hat, ranger hat, sergeant hat, Scouts hat and Smokey Bear) is a broad-brimmed felt or straw hat, with a high crown, pinched symmetrically at the four corners (the "Montana crease").
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Last edited by baseball tourist; 09-15-2014 at 09:49 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #41  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hugginsandscott View Post
One thing we cannot do is say that he is "in uniform" in this picture. He is one only a handful of the 173 people in an overcoat (while most are in full uniform). He is wearing a hat, but that could have been given to him for the purpose of the photo. We are running this photo because we believe it is "Shoeless" Joe Jackson. There is evidence to support that he toured various military operations in and around the Mid-Atlantic area following his tenure in the Bethlehem Steel League and prior to Spring Training of 1919.
The photo is certainly a type 1 period photo from Camp Meade, MD and it's dated December 4, 1918.

I would be curious if Mike Nola has any documentation showing that Jackson was back in South Carolina by early December, however I would suspect that would be very difficult to obtain. It is in our opinion that the man in the back of that photograph is Joe Jackson; hence we are offering it as such.
thanks,
Josh Wulkan
Huggins and Scott Auctions
LOL...that's the worst argument in the history of this forum. Such a leap of faith might lead one to believe your auction house would take leaps of faith with other types of memorabilia too.

I honestly can't believe that you're going to run this photo. It's embarrassing.
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  #42  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:48 PM
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Eva, instead of posting an endless array of photos of Joe Jackson, can you please post just 1 higher-resolution image of the individual in your panoramic photo? If comparison photos are warranted after that, I'm sure that plenty of high-quality comps can be produced of Joe Jackson. You (and/or the folks at Huggins) are the only ones with access to the guy in the panoramic though.
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  #43  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:54 PM
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Dude,

Let me repeat and see if you get it this time.

It doesn't matter how many parts of the face do match, if one, and it needs to be only one, part doesn't match, it's not the same person. The exceptions are differences that can be explained by age, illness/surgery/injury, or weight gain.
You can point out the brow and chin and forehead and nose and eyes as much as you want. The ears aren't the same so it CAN'T be him. The shape of your ears Do Not Change. The ears must match or IT ISN'T THE SAME GUY.
A couple other points.
1) Stop saying he was inducted. He was not inducted into the military. He never joined the military. He took a private job in a factory that made ships for the military INSTEAD of joining the military. None of us here agrees to anything else. You're they only one who thinks he was in any way in the military.
2) Having 15 women look at a photo and say the 2 guys look like each other is possibly the worst and least scientific argument you have made here today. None of them have any expertise, like Mark (Bmarlowe1) does, to do any sort of facial recognition. Just because a bunch of people state someone looks like someone, doesn't overrule EVIDENCE. The ears don't match END OF STORY.

I don't remember seeing this photo in July, so I may not have commented, but I will say this...You bring these items on here with all sorts of claims. Every time someone points out how it isn't what you want it to be, you always seem to have some explanation and refuse to admit that you are wrong. Chris (Baseball Tourist) listed a bunch or them in post 13, but left out the Fire Dept belt that you tried to say was a baseball belt. We present fact after fact and you still don't believe.

EDIT: I agree with Lance. Post a high res photo of the guys in the military photo's face.
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Last edited by Lordstan; 09-15-2014 at 09:58 PM.
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  #44  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:58 PM
murphusa murphusa is offline
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Just another case of a collector spending days on his knees praying that an item is really what they want it to be. Yup, a farm tool is a bat. The paper item is old., the pennant too cool not to be real. The guy in this picture is....

People and their money are always around to make fools of themselves and there is always someone there to help them along
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  #45  
Old 09-15-2014, 10:28 PM
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Actually the guy may in fact be Robert Deniro's grandfather at second glance. Mole on cheek and all. At the end of the day it may just be a $175 WW1 panorama photo that can be found in most antique stores in America. Hell even if it was Jackson which we can all agree is a major stretch would it really be worth much money to a sports collector ? It would be nothing more than a novelty and a where's Waldo conversation piece .
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  #46  
Old 09-16-2014, 06:42 AM
Econteachert205 Econteachert205 is offline
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Would like to see another message from the auction house in light of the proof members have illustrated.
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  #47  
Old 09-16-2014, 07:56 AM
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Parties are excused. Please step out,

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  #48  
Old 09-16-2014, 08:07 AM
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I believe if you go to the man in the row directly below "Jackson", and then go two over to our right, you could make the same case for that being Ty Cobb!

Greg
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  #49  
Old 09-16-2014, 08:14 AM
blackbetsy blackbetsy is offline
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Default Would Like To See The Evidence Joe Toured Military Facilities During This Timeframe

I believe Josh said there is some evidence that Joe toured military facilities after his playing time with Harlan. I have no evidence of this, nor do I have any newspaper accounts of Joe doing this. Trust me, if Jackson had toured a facility like this during the war, it would have made a newspaper around the country. The war was over by December and I don't see Joe needed to make a rah rah tour for the troops. In answer to Josh's request to see if I had any articles proving Joe was in SC or GA in December of 1918, I'll look into my articles and see if I can round anything up. I have over 20 Gb of digital newspaper copy from this time period, will be easy to search that, but I also have 4, 4 drawer filing cabinets of printed out newspaper copy and that will take much longer to dig through. Sometimes the Savannah paper did make mention that Joe was back in town, but I do not remember if they said it after this return from Wilmington. Joe's niece Maggi Hall said he returned to Savannah for the winter after this time with Harlan, course that doesn't mean he didn't go back north for a photo op at Fort Meade, but I do not believe this photo captures that moment.
For the final time, to the OP, Joe NEVER served in the military, that is documented fact, shipbuilding was and is not considered a military job. Lord know, I would love for this photo to be Joe Jackson, it would give me another item to research, but the reality is.....it's not Joe. Everyone wants an original photo of Joe to sell for big money, I get that. I've seen many of these so-called Joe Jackson photos in my 33 years of doing this. What you have is a neat photo of some military guys during World War I, a great photo in and of itself........I just don't think the Shoeless one is in the photo.

Mike Nola
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  #50  
Old 09-16-2014, 09:50 AM
murphusa murphusa is offline
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Joe was 6’1” tall.
The man in the photo is taller that that

Science works


The standard military hat worn in this picture was 5 ½ high.
In 1917 the average height of a soldier was 67.5 inches.
Those soldiers from the Ozark area of the Country which included North Carolina was 68.7 inches.
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