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  #101  
Old 03-28-2018, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
term limits would help, no reason that federal politician should be a career


enforcing the laws,as I said, including follow ups on felons, harsh penalties for prior felons caught with guns and being firm on "straw purchases" (when a non-felon buys a gun for a felon to subvert the law)

when law enforcement gets told about troubled people, maybe they should look into it. not use it as a catch all to strip gun rights without due process or anything, but at least take a gander? maybe?


More Good Stuff, Nick. Very Much Appreciated!
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MY BIG CONCERNS ABOUT AMERICA:

Internally- We spend too much time assuring our rights without learning the responsibilities that should accompany them.
Externally - No matter how much we claim to take the higher moral ground, we have neither respected nor attempted to understand other cultures.
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  #102  
Old 03-28-2018, 09:47 AM
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So, what's your idea to reduce mass shootings?
Disabling giant fonts?
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  #103  
Old 03-28-2018, 02:48 PM
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Disabling giant fonts?


Thanks Steve- We can all use a little chuckle here and there.
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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson


MY BIG CONCERNS ABOUT AMERICA:

Internally- We spend too much time assuring our rights without learning the responsibilities that should accompany them.
Externally - No matter how much we claim to take the higher moral ground, we have neither respected nor attempted to understand other cultures.
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  #104  
Old 03-28-2018, 03:23 PM
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well I'll be! all this time what I thought was skeet was trap!

I thought that the clay targets high in the air was skeet, but that is when they are low to simulate low bird flight right?
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  #105  
Old 03-28-2018, 07:06 PM
chlankf chlankf is offline
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Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
well I'll be! all this time what I thought was skeet was trap!

I thought that the clay targets high in the air was skeet, but that is when they are low to simulate low bird flight right?

The high house only angles up slightly and the low house rises a bit more.
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  #106  
Old 04-02-2018, 06:24 PM
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Not going to launch any volleys either way but will tell you that the if the op was impressed by the school walkouts many were a sham.

Many schools have an agenda to push on this topic. I can tell you with 100% certainty that my sons school made this walkout nonsense required of students and invited the local news to broadcast. My family is historically sportsmen and I was a competitive marksman until tremors caused by chemo kept me from continuing.

My son did not wish to participate because of his thoughts but was told there was not a choice. This was a common issue with many local schools.

Knowing this, I have no faith in the whole nonsense.
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  #107  
Old 04-02-2018, 07:28 PM
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not a choice? boy I would sue those commie xxxxers for $10m
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Last edited by Leon; 04-03-2018 at 09:21 PM. Reason: f bomb
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  #108  
Old 04-03-2018, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by JustinD View Post
Not going to launch any volleys either way but will tell you that the if the op was impressed by the school walkouts many were a sham.

Many schools have an agenda to push on this topic. I can tell you with 100% certainty that my sons school made this walkout nonsense required of students and invited the local news to broadcast. My family is historically sportsmen and I was a competitive marksman until tremors caused by chemo kept me from continuing.

My son did not wish to participate because of his thoughts but was told there was not a choice. This was a common issue with many local schools.

Knowing this, I have no faith in the whole nonsense.


This reply is not by the official OP, I'm just the guy who 'hijacked' the thread.


Justin- I'm not that naïve...I was just trying to keep the discussion positive and productive.

I agree with you that neither school walkouts nor (IMO) any social-related group expressions should be mandatory...that defeats the entire purpose and automatically invalidates any results if there are any.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your experience.

-Raymond
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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson


MY BIG CONCERNS ABOUT AMERICA:

Internally- We spend too much time assuring our rights without learning the responsibilities that should accompany them.
Externally - No matter how much we claim to take the higher moral ground, we have neither respected nor attempted to understand other cultures.

Last edited by clydepepper; 04-03-2018 at 06:42 PM. Reason: clarification
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  #109  
Old 04-03-2018, 08:41 PM
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I, too, am proud of our youth...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/31...amendment.html
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  #110  
Old 04-05-2018, 10:07 AM
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And other one in Colorado yesterday...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/05...ent-rally.html
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  #111  
Old 04-05-2018, 10:11 AM
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Both sides are free to march for whatever position they support. No student should be forced to march for something he doesn't believe in.
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  #112  
Old 04-05-2018, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JustinD View Post

My son did not wish to participate because of his thoughts but was told there was not a choice. This was a common issue with many local schools.

Knowing this, I have no faith in the whole nonsense.
Why isn't the ACLU all over these schools for this? One can only guess lol
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  #113  
Old 05-02-2018, 10:02 AM
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Let's all support our youth this morning...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/02...l-walkout.html
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  #114  
Old 05-03-2018, 11:07 AM
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Oh boy- I am going to have to give myself a warning after this.....but let's try to keep it constructive and professional. Here goes

That is not the way the vast majority of liberals (95+%?) feel, from what I have seen. But it is the way many conservatives keep trying to provide a false narrative of the other side. They lump all opposing their view into an ALL or Nothing category and it's simply not that way. Almost all liberals, and conservatives too actually, want guns but they want gun reform. I am on that side. It's really all that can be done to try to lessen the amount of these catastrophes we have. Kudo's to the kiddo's for speaking up. That said they might give some ideas on what to do, while they are at it. I have seen very few saying exactly what would be better except for the background checks and outlawing a few weapons.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.145a78c0fb93

Sorry Leon, but you need to get out and talk to more liberals.
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  #115  
Old 05-03-2018, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by gopherfan View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.145a78c0fb93

Sorry Leon, but you need to get out and talk to more liberals.
I was being nice, no thanks.

ps..I should add that many of my best hobby friends are very left and we get along great. I will compromise so we both win!!

and from the article, even though it says the percent might have decreased...

In 1999, for instance, a Hearst Newspapers poll found that 59 percent of respondents said they did not know the purpose of the Second Amendment.

lastly I am a giving myself an informal infraction as there shouldn't be politics talk on the board. The gun debate shouldn't be politicized, as said many times.
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  #116  
Old 05-03-2018, 01:27 PM
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I won't take a position here . . . having stupidly interjected politics into a few posts out of frustrations and immediately regretted it. . . . .

but I will say I have ZERO respect for anyone who criticizes anyone, young or old, black or white, smart or not so smart, from getting off their azzes and turning the TV set off and protesting something they are not happy about. Citizens of the US should be involved and actively voicing their views. That's what people have fought for. Freedom of speech, expression, and association. If you have a problem with PEACEFUL protests, I'd be happy to send you a one way ticket to Cuba or Iran.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
I was being nice, no thanks.

ps..I should add that many of my best hobby friends are very left and we get along great. I will compromise so we both win!!

and from the article, even though it says the percent might have decreased...

In 1999, for instance, a Hearst Newspapers poll found that 59 percent of respondents said they did not know the purpose of the Second Amendment.

lastly I am a giving myself an informal infraction as there shouldn't be politics talk on the board. The gun debate shouldn't be politicized, as said many times.
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  #117  
Old 05-03-2018, 02:05 PM
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Hell, if I choose to criticize people who are trying to take away my rights, nobody will ever tell me I have to leave my country for doing so.
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  #118  
Old 05-03-2018, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
so much wrong with this post, time to break it down:



and they will be just as ineffective, protests are a tired monument to the delusional wasteland of the 60's that is half of our nation's issues today



please explain how a bunch of dumb children marching is going to stop one angry, crazy person from killing a lot of people in the future. please, I'd love to hear it.

They aren't prevalent , not at all, of the 36k annual gun deaths in the USA 20k of those are suicide, and the majority of the remaining are the result of gang violence, only a tiny % are due to "mass shootings" gun control has been proven to show it won't do one tiny thing to that % either, as anyone determined to kill a lot of people is not going to be stopped by a gun law

why isn't the media reporting this accurately? hmmmm?




A- no mass shooting in the history of the USA has been done by an automatic weapon, semi-auto sure, but not a fully automatic, so ,by proxy, not one single "assault weapon" has been used in a school shooting either.

B- fully automatic weapons are expensive to buy (grandfathered in relics that cost tens of thousands) and require a year's wait and more $$$ in tax stamps and fees.

C- AR-15 is not high powered, nor fully automatic, nor a military weapon, nor an assault rifle, it's a moderate to low powered semi-automatic, varmint and home protection weapon. It looks scary because of it's cool tactical garb, but underneath the weapon itself is just a hunting rifle with a magazine

D- did the founding fathers plan for the computer and mass media ? so does your first amendment rights to freedom of speech end with the quill and ink? that's a fallacious and silly argument, (and btw, they knew of gatlin gun type weapons and the early attempts at semi-auto)





times may change, but my natural rights to protect myself with firearms does not, neither does the power of my constitution, want to change it? fine, follow the rules and pass an amendment, get it through 2/3rds of Congress and have it ratified by 3/4ths of the states. Something tells me you KNOW this will never happen as 100m+ gun owners would oppose you 100%.





You need to learn about guns before you make one more statement about them as you come off as woefully ignorant of the issue and are making naive and embarrassing cliche'd arguments.
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  #119  
Old 05-08-2018, 10:01 AM
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Son of a gun (see what I did there? ). I get busy outside of the hobby, visit this site less often over the past couple of months, and I miss the start of this thread. Let's dig into the entire picture here, boys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
so much wrong with this post, time to break it down:

and they will be just as ineffective, protests are a tired monument to the delusional wasteland of the 60's that is half of our nation's issues today

please explain how a bunch of dumb children marching is going to stop one angry, crazy person from killing a lot of people in the future. please, I'd love to hear it.

They aren't prevalent , not at all, of the 36k annual gun deaths in the USA 20k of those are suicide, and the majority of the remaining are the result of gang violence, only a tiny % are due to "mass shootings" gun control has been proven to show it won't do one tiny thing to that % either, as anyone determined to kill a lot of people is not going to be stopped by a gun law

why isn't the media reporting this accurately? hmmmm?

A- no mass shooting in the history of the USA has been done by an automatic weapon, semi-auto sure, but not a fully automatic, so ,by proxy, not one single "assault weapon" has been used in a school shooting either.

B- fully automatic weapons are expensive to buy (grandfathered in relics that cost tens of thousands) and require a year's wait and more $$$ in tax stamps and fees.

C- AR-15 is not high powered, nor fully automatic, nor a military weapon, nor an assault rifle, it's a moderate to low powered semi-automatic, varmint and home protection weapon. It looks scary because of it's cool tactical garb, but underneath the weapon itself is just a hunting rifle with a magazine

D- did the founding fathers plan for the computer and mass media ? so does your first amendment rights to freedom of speech end with the quill and ink? that's a fallacious and silly argument, (and btw, they knew of gatlin gun type weapons and the early attempts at semi-auto)

times may change, but my natural rights to protect myself with firearms does not, neither does the power of my constitution, want to change it? fine, follow the rules and pass an amendment, get it through 2/3rds of Congress and have it ratified by 3/4ths of the states. Something tells me you KNOW this will never happen as 100m+ gun owners would oppose you 100%.

You need to learn about guns before you make one more statement about them as you come off as woefully ignorant of the issue and are making naive and embarrassing cliche'd arguments.
First, let's start with this post, as it is phenomenal. I do have a few things/details to add...

- AR (as in AR15 or AR10) stands for ArmaLite, not Assault Rifle. Assault is an action, not a tangible item.

- AR15s can be powerful if chambered in something bigger than the traditional 5.56 or .223. I know Alexander Arms has a 50 Beowulf AR15, there is a .458 SOCOM AR15 - those are both hard hitting, powerful rounds. However, to my knowledge, no shooting in the US has ever utilized those rounds, or any round bigger than the 5.56/.223. Those larger-caliber AR15s and AR10s - chambered in 7.62/.308 - are more powerful than the traditional AR15, but are also more expensive, thus the use of the 5.56/.223. I mention this because AR15s can definitely be higher powered, but the mass shootings everyone points to use the lower-powered calibers.

- The estimated number of civilian-owned firearms in this country is over 300 million. That's estimated to be around 42% of the world's civilian gun ownership total. America rocks. If guns were a problem, this country and the world would know it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for my thoughts...

- I am not proud of our youth for their sheepish protests; the majority are following, ignorantly following to boot. I'm even more disappointed in our "educators" for not pressing them on the issues. I emailed my high school's principal and superintendent when I heard that they allowed a walkout. I challenged them to challenge the students, because that is their job. The students have the right to protest, but as educators, they should be challenging the students to prevent protest in ignorance. I asked them if they challenged the students to research the group Empower (the one who started the mass school walkout protests) and its origins. I asked if they questioned the students on what AR stands for, and what a semi-automatic rifle is and how it functions compared to a bolt-action rifle and fully automatic rifle. I asked if they were challenging the kids on the type of legislation they are pushing for and how it would prevent any previous mass shootings, and any future mass shootings. I asked if they were questioning the kids on the details of the Parkland shooting.

- It has been 1.5-2 months since the Parkland shooting, and we're finding out more and more about the negligence of our government which enabled the shooting to occur. Cruz and his brother had been known to law enforcement over 40 times (I think the number is up to 60), including a YouTube comment under Cruz's name literally stating that he wants to become a professional school shooter. Cruz was then permitted into the PROMISE program, a program designed to limit the number of arrests of youth, to lower the uneven number of minorities vs. white youth in jail or whatever. I believe the superintendent of the school system down there implemented the program; he is from politically-corrupt Chicago. Had Cruz been properly documented and not protected by law enforcement and such a program, he never would have been able to purchase a firearm. Strike 1 against our government.

- We now know that the school resource officer AND the law enforcement that arrived on scene failed to engage Cruz during the shooting. In fact, they stayed outside the building, and didn't arrest Cruz until he had left school grounds. Strike 2 against our government.

- The most common denominator/factor of most - if not all - mass shootings is medication. Cruz and nearly - again, if not all - mass shooters have been on some sort of anti-depressent/anxiety medication. Who is in charge of our healthcare system? The government. However, I have yet to see a protest against the over/improper prescription of these medications. Strike 3.

I mentioned 3 issues with the shooting, not one of which was the firearm itself. Someone has to pull the trigger on a firearm for a projectile to be fired.

We have common sense gun laws in this country already. It's up to the government officials to properly enforce those laws, which they did not with Parkland.

Additionally, to direct the attention back onto our youth, I believe they are being used as puppets by the establishment and the media to push an agenda. They won't give pro-2A-Parkland-survivor Kyle Kashuv the time of day, but will parade David Hogg and pro-Cuba Emma Gonzalez onto their networks 24/7.

Also, who is challenging these youth "protesters" how their proposed legislation will actually work and prevent mass shootings? They're just letting them spew ignorant talking points.

Here's what I propose...

- Hire former law enforcement and military veterans to be armed guards at schools.

- Arm the teachers in a voluntary manner, while providing proper training. Cut funding elsewhere, most likely athletically, to balance the expenses and not burden taxpayers any further.

- Overhaul the education system to get back to the fundamental essentials that used to be taught - i.e. life lessons, skilled labor education, and basic morals - instead of the social justice indoctrination and bloated emphasis on "testing" currently found in our school systems (again, run by government).

- Target drug smugglers and dealers HARD to get drugs off the streets. This should help prevent addiction problems at an early age, as well as stabilize the traditional family.

- Keep improving the economy, measuring our welfare programs by the number of people coming off. Again, this should help stabilize the traditional family, thus giving our youth a more stable upbringing.


I'm not a Republican, I'm not a Democrat; I am an American, and a proud one at that. Therefore, my beliefs center around the Constitution, a blessing from our Founding Fathers and God Himself in response to a war for freedom against a tyrannical government. That's why the Second Amendment is written, that's why it's so high on the list, and that's why it includes the phrase "shall not be infringed".


I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, so I apologize if any of this has been stated before.
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  #120  
Old 05-08-2018, 10:23 AM
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The federal government and local government are two separate entities and your post is blurring the lines between them in several areas. Our government is not the government of Florida unless you live in Florida. People aren't corrupt by default because of where they come from (Chicago, for example) and you don't really give any credit to high school students being able to think for themselves. You are simultaneously suggesting these kids are victims of group think while also suggesting they should think the way you do. That's a contradiction.
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  #121  
Old 05-08-2018, 10:39 AM
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The federal government and local government are two separate entities and your post is blurring the lines between them in several areas. Our government is not the government of Florida unless you live in Florida. People aren't corrupt by default because of where they come from (Chicago, for example) and you don't really give any credit to high school students being able to think for themselves. You are simultaneously suggesting these kids are victims of group think while also suggesting they should think the way you do. That's a contradiction.
- Not sure where I blurred the lines between the two. Both the FBI and local law enforcement were aware of Cruz.

- Not sure what your point is about our government not being Florida's government. So are only people from Florida allowed to comment on this matter?

- You're right, people aren't corrupt by default because of where they are from. However, context clues, a track record of corruption, and common sense tells us not to trust politicians, let alone from Chicago. By the way, Chicago is a perfect example of gun control being not only ineffective, but detrimental to the public's safety.

- I refuse to give credit for their ability to think for themselves when the original school walkout was organized by Empower, not individual students. I've also seen many interviews that suggest they are very uneducated on the subjects they are bringing attention to.

- They are absolutely victims of group think, but I do not want them to think like me. I want them to have all of the facts, something I know for a fact they aren't provided with in school, and simply for them to think. If they end up thinking like me in the end, fine, but I just want them to think.


Instead of trying to (incorrectly) nit-pick any sort of semantics in my post and try to demean me politically, do you have any comments on my suggestions to prevent future mass shootings?
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  #122  
Old 05-08-2018, 11:05 AM
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I wasn't demeaning you at all. I just thought it's important to distinguish between generalities. For example, you had said our government gets a strike because the guard on duty and local law enforcement didn't enter the school. That's not a strike against our government, that's a strike against two individuals who work for local law enforcement.

Last edited by packs; 05-08-2018 at 11:05 AM.
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  #123  
Old 05-08-2018, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
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I wasn't demeaning you at all. I just thought it's important to distinguish between generalities. For example, you had said our government gets a strike because the guard on duty and local law enforcement didn't enter the school. That's not a strike against our government, that's a strike against two individuals who work for local law enforcement.
This just single-handily ended this entire debate (albeit with an incorrect statement since there were more than 2 security/law enforcement individuals that did not enter the building).

Blame the individual, not the government, which could also be re-worded for this discussion.

Blame the individual, not the gun.
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  #124  
Old 05-08-2018, 11:10 AM
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I wasn't debating. I was pointing out generalities in your post, like the one referenced above, a person being corrupt by default because of where they're from, and you not giving people credit for their own thoughts.

I guess I wasn't clear either: "our government" isn't the government of Florida, which is who those enforcement agents work for. So our government played no role in the local officials failing to enter the building, who are part of Florida's state and local government agencies.

Last edited by packs; 05-08-2018 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 05-08-2018, 11:15 AM
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... do you have any comments on my suggestions to prevent future mass shootings?
"Arm the teachers in a voluntary manner, while providing proper training. Cut funding elsewhere, most likely athletically, to balance the expenses and not burden taxpayers any further".

While I do like your suggestions, in general, I personally place a very high value on youth athletics. I know my town does spend a lot of money on youth sports, but a lot of it is also parents volunteering (coaching/concession stand/running the leagues/maintaining fields) and donations from sponsors. I rank kids being active higher than arming the teachers, if I was in charge of portioning money.

And I'm also torn on whether to arm the teachers. Good points have been made for/against it, so while I'd be open to it, I wouldn't "pull the trigger" (bad pun, sorry) if I were in charge of making the decision.
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Old 05-08-2018, 01:33 PM
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I wasn't debating. I was pointing out generalities in your post, like the one referenced above, a person being corrupt by default because of where they're from, and you not giving people credit for their own thoughts.

I guess I wasn't clear either: "our government" isn't the government of Florida, which is who those enforcement agents work for. So our government played no role in the day's failings of local officials who are part of Florida's government agencies.
I actually never stated that he was corrupt. I inferred it based on the corruption in Chicago, but that's well known and documented. Again, these aren't the thoughts of individuals, but rather the thoughts of a group being followed by the students, largely in a blind manner. I can't in good conscious give credit for that.

The FBI is the FEDERAL Bureau of Investigation, and were tipped off on Cruz. They were well involved, and failed to do their job. Whether it be a Florida office location or not, they are still part of the federal government. Additionally, again speaking in a general sense, I talked about the flaws in our education system, which stem from the Department of Education, a federal department.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger8mush View Post
"Arm the teachers in a voluntary manner, while providing proper training. Cut funding elsewhere, most likely athletically, to balance the expenses and not burden taxpayers any further".

While I do like your suggestions, in general, I personally place a very high value on youth athletics. I know my town does spend a lot of money on youth sports, but a lot of it is also parents volunteering (coaching/concession stand/running the leagues/maintaining fields) and donations from sponsors. I rank kids being active higher than arming the teachers, if I was in charge of portioning money.

And I'm also torn on whether to arm the teachers. Good points have been made for/against it, so while I'd be open to it, I wouldn't "pull the trigger" (bad pun, sorry) if I were in charge of making the decision.
I agree on finding other ways in the budget or other ways in general to fund the training for teachers, as I like school athletics as well. I only said athletics because it's the least detrimental to the academics side of school.

I'm not for arming all teachers. Like I said, it would have to be done in a voluntary manner. There are many teachers that are military veterans, and with others being gun enthusiasts (see Hickock45 on YouTube). I think those are the type of people who would make a great second line of defense.
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  #127  
Old 05-08-2018, 06:33 PM
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It ALL comes down to personal responsibility and accountability.

THAT, IMO, covers the entire discussion!


I cannot believe that anyone would argue against that, but you probably will.


...and, that, is the world we live in...
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  #128  
Old 05-18-2018, 08:53 AM
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I wasn't debating. I was pointing out generalities in your post, like the one referenced above, a person being corrupt by default because of where they're from, and you not giving people credit for their own thoughts.

I guess I wasn't clear either: "our government" isn't the government of Florida, which is who those enforcement agents work for. So our government played no role in the local officials failing to enter the building, who are part of Florida's state and local government agencies.
http://abc7chicago.com/politics/repo...in-us/3478310/
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:20 AM
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Again I really have no idea what you're trying to say. So if you're just some guy born in Chicago it's totally acceptable to make pre-conceived judgments about your character?
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:18 AM
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Maybe, if that person is a Cub fan
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Old 05-18-2018, 11:04 AM
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Friday morning 5/18 news - "At least 8 dead at a Texas high school this morning." Gasp!
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Old 05-18-2018, 11:52 AM
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Absolutely horrific news. Not to mention it's still very much an active scene, despite suspects in custody, due to explosives at the school and off school grounds.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:03 PM
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This one hits really close to home. I grew up in the next town over. I just checked MapQuest from my mom's house to the high school - 8 minutes, 6.3 miles. Very sad.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:14 PM
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Sorry for those such as David who live so close to this tragedy. I feel terrible for kids today who have to deal with something that was unimaginable when I was in high school.
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Old 05-18-2018, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
If you're speaking for the opposition, then I have a question. You tell us what they don't want (abolition of the 2nd Ammendment), but how about telling us what the do want? All I hear from the left are vague terms like "gun control measures." What does that even mean?

I think that's what makes a lot of gun owners nervous. When the left isn't specific about what they want, then how is the right supposed to interpret that, other than a total gun ban? Again, if that's not what they want, then tell us what they do want. Be specific.
I don't know if I'm right or left anymore. I am registered as a Republican, although I never vote that way because I think that, at least in my state, they have moved too far right. I consider myself to be a moderate and here, that means you vote Dem and know that you are going to lose. It is what it is. Leon, that isn't really political. It's just a statement of how I view things.

I have guns, although not so many as I used to since I don' do much but bird hunt any more, Don't even own a handgun anymore. Just a couple of shotguns and deer rifles, I can tell you one thing I want though. I want the gun show loophole to be closed. I don't think anyone should be able to walk in to a gun show, buy a gun, and walk out with it right then without any scrutiny. That is ridiculous in my opinion So are bump stocks and banana clips. That isn't for self-defense and it isn't for hunting. That's just for killing folks. There is no other reason than to shoot faster and with more bullets.

Irrespective of party or viewpoint on guns, it is a fact that our kids are getting killed in the schools they go to. As of today, 22 school shootings in 20 weeks. That is way fucked up. Kids, and parents, should be able to expect that when they leave for school, they will actually be able to come back alive. That isn't happening. Then we offer our prayers and forget about it two days later. That is simply wrong. Period. I get that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Right, But people with guns can kill other people far more quickly and far more effectively. Therein lies the problem.

Just like every constitutional provision, the 2nd amendment doesn't guarantee you absolute right to own any weapon you want. For example, you don't get to own nuclear weapons or chemical weapons. Explain how your second amendment rights guarantee you that right as you are being cuffed and carted off to jail by the FBI or ATF. I don't think you can. Nor do I think you will be exonerated. Why do you need an AR? I have hunted all my life and have never owned, used, or felt I needed, an AR. Obviously I'm missing something.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the 2nd Amendment be repealed, although if you look at the historical basis for its passage, it seems pretty clear that the primary reason it was passed no longer exists . Be that as it may, I'm certainly not advocating that. I am advocating that we do stuff, like serious background checks, getting rid of the gun show loophole, and that we restrict bump stocks and huge clips. Unlike the NRA, I don't think that's unreasonable. I just want my kids to be safe.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:41 AM
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Even the NRA wasn't always anti gun-control. In most of our lifetimes the NRA advocated FOR gun control.

In the 1930s, the NRA helped pass bills that regulated submachine guns and sawed-off shotguns, banned some gun buyers and made gun dealers register with the government. Its cooperation continued following the political and racial assassinations of the 1960s.

In the 1970s, the NRA’s public image began to change after a law-breaking member was killed by an ATF agent. In 1977, it adopted a policy opposing all forms of gun control. Despite this, after the attempt on NRA member President Ronald Reagan’s life, the NRA reluctantly supported the 1994 Brady Bill, which required a waiting period and background checks for handgun purchases. The bill included a 10-year ban on assault weapons. When the ban expired in 2004, the NRA had gained enough political clout to prevent its renewal.

Do a search on the worst mass shootings in US history. Take note of how many occurred after those key dates. Namely 1977 and 2004 the results might or might not shock you.

The NRA being bought and paid for by big business, which is in turn buying and paying for our politicians is the problem, and frankly I don't see that as a political opinion, but maybe I'm being naive.

I'll leave you with this thought, from a former president of the NRA Karl T. Frederick, a 1920 Olympic gold-medal winner for marksmanship:

“I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.”

So where does the modern NRA attitude come from???

Probably a dumb post to make for someone in business, and my intent isn't to piss off one side or please the other. Merely to call attention to the fact that games are being played and our children are apparently the expendable pawns on the board.
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  #137  
Old 05-19-2018, 09:22 AM
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I don’t understand what the NRA has to do with any of this? Until the REAL problem is addressed, these mass shootings – at schools, at movie theaters, at malls, wherever – will continue to happen.

The REAL problem is the individuals involved – not the guns. Reasonable gun owners like myself have been saying for a long time that you don’t need to have an assault rifle to carry out these types of horrific tragedies. The kid yesterday didn’t have an assault rifle. He had a shotgun (just like Kenny has, just like I have) and a .38 revolver (the SAME gun my 89 year old grandmother has for home defense - seriously).

Drunk drivers kill way more people than mass shooters. But when we hear about a drunk driver killing an entire family, we don’t blame the alcohol, we blame the driver. We don’t try and put restrictions on the alcohol, we make the DWI penalties more strict to try and prevent it.

So what’s next? Ban shotguns and .38 revolvers too? Blame the NRA some more? Like I said, these things will keep happening and we’ll all send our thoughts and prayers to the victims and their families over and over and over again. Flags will be lowered to half staff for a few days and then people will forget about it until the next time. Nothing will change. The change will only come when we stop trying to blame the guns and start blaming the individuals who commit these tragedies

Y’all can just keep making your same old talking points, blame the NRA, ban this or that and one day you may even get your way. But that doesn’t get rid of the 300 million guns that are already out there. People who want to commit these types of tragedies will find a way. Again, until the REAL problem is addressed, nothing will change no matter what guns laws are imposed.

Deal with the ones that have mental health issues. They're the REAL problem. When the cops are called to a house 30+ times, there is a mental health issue there. When some kid posts a “Born to Kill” t-shirt on Facebook (the kid yesterday), there is a mental health issue there. These people aren’t hard to spot. They’re quite easy. The problem is nobody wants to do anything about it because we’re too afraid we'll infringe on their rights. Bull crap! Find the ones with mental health issues – no treatment facilities – just lock them up until the day the die.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:37 AM
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David,

I don't disagree with much of what you said, but I sure disagree with some of it. I disagree about the NRA not having anything to do with what's going on. It has a lot to do with it IMO. The NRA leads the charge against closing the gun show loophole, which is the exception that swallows the rule. You go to the right gun dealer at a gun show and you can be a felon, convicted of murder or any other heinous crime, and walk away with a gun THAT DAY. You can be crazy as a run over dog and get a gun that day too. And, of course, anytime that someone who is viewed as a "liberal" gets elected, gun sales go up because the NRA and the gun dealers do their best to exploit what I view as the irrational fear that the government is going to come take all the guns away. None of that makes any sense at all to me.

If you allow your underage kid and his friends to drink at your house and one of those drunk kids leaves your house and kills a family on the way home, its your ass. And it should be. However, if you leave your guns accessible to your kids or their friends, even if you know that they may have mental heath issues, its OK. You are good to go. The NRA is instrumental in letting negligent gun owners get off without repercussions. Legislation can't get passed because the NRA gets it killed. Nothing happens. That doesn't make sense to me either.

I agree that mental illness is a huge problem. Its a problem that we as a society have never addressed very well. In nearly every state, the mental health agencies are among the most underfunded. They don't have the resources or the capacity to address the problem. Here, the "solution" is to dump them out on the street in some city other than the one they came from and let someone else deal with them. That isn't much of a solution.

I disagree that those with a mental illness are always easy to spot. The shooter yesterday had no past history that would put him on the radar screen of either mental health professionals or law enforcement He was part of a church dance group for goodness sake. Sometimes you can spot someone with a problem, but not always. Even the friends of yesterday's shooter didn't see the signs. And if the government overtly starts monitoring everyone's social media posts (which I suspect it already does covertly) and then tries to take action against those who it deems problematic, you have very big First Amendment and Second Amendment issue. Do you or should you lose your right to own a gun because you make disturbing social media posts?

I don't have the answers. But something has to be done. We have to do better by our kids. They shouldn't have to worry about dying when they go to school. The very fact that our kids now have to go through active shooter drills at school is nearly beyond my ability to comprehend.

We can't outlaw cars because they are necessary in nearly every facet of life. But we regulate them. If you speed and get caught you get a ticket. If you don't belt up and get caught, you get a ticket. If you drive drunk and get caught you go to jail. In fact, unlike years past, there is now a great emphasis on publicizing and preventing drunk driving precisely because we, as a society, finally got to the point where we said enough is enough. Do those regulations infringe on my rights? Maybe. But they also make a lot of sense. They hopefully remind not to be a dumbass when I drive and help protect both me and the other drivers on the road. I'm OK with that.

I'm not advocating outlawing guns. Never have, never would. But for God's sake, there is no reason I can think of why we shouldn't at least try to do a better job of regulating both them and the people who own them. Just like voting, I have always thought that gun ownership was both a right AND a responsibility. Particularly now, I feel like the argument about the right to own guns far outweighs the responsibility part. In my estimation, it should be the other way around.
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Old 05-19-2018, 12:58 PM
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I'm at work today, but I wanted to make some quick comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole View Post
You go to the right gun dealer at a gun show and you can be a felon, convicted of murder or any other heinous crime, and walk away with a gun THAT DAY..
As far as the gun show loophole, I've honestly never heard of what you're describing. A licensed gun dealer isn't going to risk losing their license for a few dollars under the table. On the other hand, a felon (or anybody) can go into a gun show and buy a gun from an individual attending the show without any paperwork. If that's what you meant instead, then I agree that needs to be stopped.

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The shooter yesterday had no past history that would put him on the radar screen of either mental health professionals or law enforcement.
As I already stated, this guy posted a pic of a t-shirt (I don't know if he was wearing the shirt or not) on his Facebook page that said "Born to Kill". That is a red flag. He was known for wearing a trench coat. A trench coat in the Texas summer? It was hot as hell here yesterday! That's not a red flag too? Guess who else wore trench coats in the summertime? Sure, he had no past history, but do we wait for them to have a "history" to do something about them?

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Do you or should you lose your right to own a gun because you make disturbing social media posts?
YES!
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Old 05-19-2018, 05:50 PM
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*Cracks knuckles in preparation to type... a lot*

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Originally Posted by Kenny Cole View Post
I want the gun show loophole to be closed. I don't think anyone should be able to walk in to a gun show, buy a gun, and walk out with it right then without any scrutiny. That is ridiculous in my opinion So are bump stocks and banana clips. That isn't for self-defense and it isn't for hunting. That's just for killing folks. There is no other reason than to shoot faster and with more bullets.

But people with guns can kill other people far more quickly and far more effectively. Therein lies the problem.

Just like every constitutional provision, the 2nd amendment doesn't guarantee you absolute right to own any weapon you want. Why do you need an AR? I have hunted all my life and have never owned, used, or felt I needed, an AR. Obviously I'm missing something.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the 2nd Amendment be repealed, although if you look at the historical basis for its passage, it seems pretty clear that the primary reason it was passed no longer exists . Be that as it may, I'm certainly not advocating that. I am advocating that we do stuff, like serious background checks, getting rid of the gun show loophole, and that we restrict bump stocks and huge clips. Unlike the NRA, I don't think that's unreasonable. I just want my kids to be safe.
- Most if not all firearms dealers at gun shows are licensed, meaning to purchase a firearm, you have to fill out a 4473, go through the NICS background check process, etc. Also, what mass shooting has been carried out using a gun legally purchased at a gun show? And what is a "serious" background check, compared to the very thorough background check system that is currently in place? What is a banana clip? Do you mean an AR magazine? Would banning those "banana clips" (AR magazines) have prevented Santa Fe? Bump stocks aren't a problem, either. They're incredibly inaccurate, can destroy the guns they're attached to, and can be mimicked very easily using your thumb or household items.

- Yeah, just like an assault buggy (I mean vehicle) plowing through a crowd, or a knife attack against defenseless people, or a bomb attack using an assault pot (I mean a pressure cooker), or a plane using an assault bird (I mean plane). Boston Bombings, 9/11, NYC Home Depot Truck, London's knife attack problem & vehicular terrorism problem, etc.

- What's so bad about an AR15? Mine has never killed a single living thing. I must have gotten lucky and purchased an already-well-trained AR15. In all seriousness, would banning AR15s have prevented Santa Fe? What about the AR15's mechanical components and functionality differs it from any other semi-automatic weapons? You have the freedom to choose not to on an AR15, and I will not advocate to take that freedom away from you. But why, in return, do people advocate to take my RIGHT to own an AR15? Heck, I actually want an AR10 here soon. Helluva lot of fun to shoot, and WAY more powerful than an AR15. Then again, I'm a lawful individual, and would only ever shoot someone or a living thing in self defense with it (unless I take it hunting, but I prefer a classic bolt action for hunting; just a personal preference).

- Actually, you're wrong. There have been several political figures and celebrities who have come out against the 2nd Amendment altogether, pushing for its repeal. The primary purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to protect its citizens against a tyrannical government. That is a timeless purpose, proven true over and over again by people like Hitler, Mao, Kim Jung Un, Stalin, Castro, etc. And please don't bring the NRA into this. Not one single individual that has committed a mass shooting has been a NRA member. The background check system that's currently in place was proposed by the NRA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
Even the NRA wasn't always anti gun-control. In most of our lifetimes the NRA advocated FOR gun control.

In the 1930s, the NRA helped pass bills that regulated submachine guns and sawed-off shotguns, banned some gun buyers and made gun dealers register with the government. Its cooperation continued following the political and racial assassinations of the 1960s.


In the 1970s, the NRA’s public image began to change after a law-breaking member was killed by an ATF agent. In 1977, it adopted a policy opposing all forms of gun control. Despite this, after the attempt on NRA member President Ronald Reagan’s life, the NRA reluctantly supported the 1994 Brady Bill, which required a waiting period and background checks for handgun purchases. The bill included a 10-year ban on assault weapons. When the ban expired in 2004, the NRA had gained enough political clout to prevent its renewal.

Do a search on the worst mass shootings in US history. Take note of how many occurred after those key dates. Namely 1977 and 2004 the results might or might not shock you.

The NRA being bought and paid for by big business, which is in turn buying and paying for our politicians is the problem, and frankly I don't see that as a political opinion, but maybe I'm being naive.

I'll leave you with this thought, from a former president of the NRA Karl T. Frederick, a 1920 Olympic gold-medal winner for marksmanship:

“I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.”

So where does the modern NRA attitude come from???

Probably a dumb post to make for someone in business, and my intent isn't to piss off one side or please the other. Merely to call attention to the fact that games are being played and our children are apparently the expendable pawns on the board.
- Proof that they can be reasonable. Sawed-off shotguns are somewhat legal now, with variations being used as home protection weapons. You still have to be 21 to purchase one, though.

- Interestingly enough, the Department of Education was formed in 1979. Mass/School shootings have increased since, if I'm not mistaken. Coincidence?

- The NRA has donated $200M to politicians in the last 20 years. For comparison, unions donated (mostly to Democrats) $1.7B in 2016 ALONE. Planned Parenthood said they are committing, what, $30M to political campaigns this fall ALONE?

- You're right, games are being played, but it isn't by the NRA. None of the proposals spewed by the pro-gun control crowd would have prevented any school shootings. In fact, the proposals by the pro-2A crowd HAVE proven to be effective and preventative - more armed security and the overall hardening of soft targets. Look at the school shooting that occurred in Illinois last week or so. Oh wait, there wasn't one, because an armed resource officer confronted the would-be-school-shooter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole View Post
David,

I disagree about the NRA not having anything to do with what's going on. It has a lot to do with it IMO.

I agree that mental illness is a huge problem. Its a problem that we as a society have never addressed very well. In nearly every state, the mental health agencies are among the most underfunded. They don't have the resources or the capacity to address the problem. Here, the "solution" is to dump them out on the street in some city other than the one they came from and let someone else deal with them. That isn't much of a solution.

The very fact that our kids now have to go through active shooter drills at school is nearly beyond my ability to comprehend.

I'm not advocating outlawing guns. Never have, never would. But for God's sake, there is no reason I can think of why we shouldn't at least try to do a better job of regulating both them and the people who own them. Just like voting, I have always thought that gun ownership was both a right AND a responsibility. Particularly now, I feel like the argument about the right to own guns far outweighs the responsibility part. In my estimation, it should be the other way around.
- The NRA has nothing to do with any of these shootings. Nothing. Zip. Zero. Nada. None of the shooters are NRA members, and every single one of the shooters is unlawful, when the NRA advocates for lawful and responsible gun ownership.

- Mental health is a massive problem, but why now? What has changed in society to cause so many kids/people to be diagnosed with mental disorders? My theory is there's a breakdown in our education system. What is taught in schools is detrimental to society. Actual skills such as Home Economics and Woodshop have been scrapped to shove testing subjects down the throats of our youth in order to "beat China". Life lessons and morals have been removed from our schools, with the PC culture taking over. American patriotism is frowned upon. Kids aren't taught to think for themselves, and what's worse, some of the subjects are taught incorrectly to begin with. Some of these kids come from broken families, a problem that stems from failures in government policy (shocker). The cycle is perpetuated over and over again. Not to mention the drug epidemic in this country, which enhances the problem. I believe most if not all the mass/school shooters have been on some sort of anti-depressent/anti-anxiety medicine. Our healthcare system blows (government ran), and is very prescription-happy.

- This is a bit off-topic, but kids back in the day went through nuclear bomb drills. I understand fully that our kids shouldn't have to go through either, but multiple generations have gone through some sort of attack preparation. It never hurts to be prepared. The issue is, action isn't taken to harden the schools in the process nowadays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole View Post
22 school shootings in 20 weeks.
- Also, this is false. Did you get this number from CNN?

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Look, blaming the NRA or guns isn't going to prevent the next school shooter. That's a fact. These criminals, by definition, do not follow the laws on the books. The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, and that is first and foremost what needs to be done - putting more good guys with guns in our schools.

After that, the next step is to look at where the breakdown is in our society that is causing the mental issues. I stated the basics of my opinions above, and will refrain from going into anymore detail as I've already probably exhausted Leon's patience enough.

There are 300+ million guns in this country. If they were the problem, we'd know. Blaming them only takes time away from working on actual, effective solutions to protect our kids.
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  #141  
Old 12-17-2018, 05:15 PM
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Runscott Runscott is offline
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I was out at the shooting range today and got to thinking "I wonder how many others in my various hobbies enjoy shooting?" I was just curious. I searched on 'firearms' and this was the most interesting thread I found. I am pretty much only interested in antique .357's that are shooters, so I look for rare collectible guns and then enjoy using them. I'm the same way with pool cues, old Stetsons, etc. - I just like collecting old stuff, and old guns fit in with old baseball equipment, etc., the difference being that I can use the guns.

Also, I love the above post. I would love to add comments to some of the other posts in this thread, but I've had every argument you can imagine regarding guns, and none of them were fun or interesting (my gf hates guns )
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  #142  
Old 12-18-2018, 08:34 PM
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bnorth bnorth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
I was out at the shooting range today and got to thinking "I wonder how many others in my various hobbies enjoy shooting?" I was just curious. I searched on 'firearms' and this was the most interesting thread I found. I am pretty much only interested in antique .357's that are shooters, so I look for rare collectible guns and then enjoy using them. I'm the same way with pool cues, old Stetsons, etc. - I just like collecting old stuff, and old guns fit in with old baseball equipment, etc., the difference being that I can use the guns.

Also, I love the above post. I would love to add comments to some of the other posts in this thread, but I've had every argument you can imagine regarding guns, and none of them were fun or interesting (my gf hates guns )
I have not shot them in years but I have a 1954 Beretta 32 ACP and a 1972 Walther PPK/S. I have the original box for the Walther along with the original target they used to test fire the gun at the factory with the guns serial # on it.
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  #143  
Old 12-18-2018, 10:01 PM
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vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
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For me, it's the Winchester 94 lever action - the gun that won the west. I own many of these - 30-30s, 44 magnums, long barrels, short barrels, you name it. A true American classic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1894
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