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  #11  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:25 PM
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parker1b2 parker1b2 is offline
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IMHO War is stupid, it is not a stat it is a judgement, and it does not take a lot of things into consideration on the true worth of a player. I truly believe it was developed by people who never played baseball or were athletes in general.
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  #12  
Old 05-28-2018, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parker1b2 View Post
IMHO War is stupid, it is not a stat it is a judgement, and it does not take a lot of things into consideration on the true worth of a player. I truly believe it was developed by people who never played baseball or were athletes in general.
I get where you're coming from, although traditional stats have judgements involved, including (but not limited to) error versus hit, "earned" runs, who gets a win, sacrifice bunts not counting towards ABs, etc. etc.

I'm fine with non-athletes developing stats or whatever. One not need to an athlete to enjoy or have educated observations on sport, just as one not need to travel at the speed of light to understand the theory of relativity.

WAR has its flaws, no doubt, but just about every front office in MLB finds WAR and sabermetrics valuable enough to utilize them in their decision making process. In all likelihood, most MLB front offices utilize stats and analysis beyond WAR that I would have even more trouble understanding than WAR. But just because I don't fully understand it doesn't make it wrong or bad - I'll try my best to glean something useful out of it, if I can. Just like the theory of relativity.
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  #13  
Old 05-28-2018, 11:55 AM
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How does Bobby Grich come out so far ahead of Biggio and Alomar, among others, speaking of WAR? 7th best second baseman of all time?
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  #14  
Old 05-28-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How does Bobby Grich come out so far ahead of Biggio and Alomar, among others, speaking of WAR? 7th best second baseman of all time?
I can't answer this to the underpinnings of WAR, and I'm certainly not well versed in Grich, but I'll do my best to share the context that I do know.

First off, there are two versions of WAR, produced by Fangraphs and Baseball-Reference, and they have some differences in how they get to where they get. Grich is 8th on BR's WAR list for 2B with 71.1 WAR (Alomar is 14 with 67.1, Biggio is 15 with 65.5). Grich is 8th on Fangraphs with 69.2 (Biggio is 10 with 65.8, Alomar is 11 with 63.6).

My understanding of WAR is that it offers an approximate value on a player's contributions, albeit the way it is presented sometimes would make one thing it is hard and fast to the decimal accurate. On a single season WAR total, my understanding is that there is around a .5 margin of error (possibly a bit more), so a player who has 6.5 WAR hasn't necessarily had a superior season to another one who has 6.0 WAR.

So my reading of that would lead me to believe that players with similar WAR totals for their career are all in the same boat, which would be the case for Grich, Alomar and Biggio. They all had about the same total contributions between defense, offense and baserunning.

In that light, it might be more useful to look at the different tiers of 2B, based on WAR. Using just Fangraphs' list, I might put Hornsby and Eddie Collins in the first tier, followed by Lajoie and Morgan in tier 2. After that, things get muddied, starting with number 5 all time with Charlie Gehringer (78.6 WAR) all the way down to Joe Gordon at 16th (60.6 WAR) - and due to service time limitations, and I'd easily include Jackie Robinson in this tier (17th, 57.2 WAR). This third tier could be broken up into two, easily, maybe three, or all grouped together. I don't think small differences in WAR should be hard and fast when it comes to ranking players.
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  #15  
Old 05-28-2018, 12:59 PM
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I hear you, but I still don't know why Grich is even in that company. He didn't have much power, didn't hit for average, won a few GGs early but nothing after that, 1800 career hits with a .266 average.
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  #16  
Old 05-28-2018, 01:05 PM
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Oh, here's a parallel: also think of WAR like ABV when it comes to beer. Beer may be listed at 6.5%, but there is a margin of error in that around .5%. WAR is the same.

And the best news is that having a beer will either help illuminate the value of WAR or help you forget about it entirely.
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  #17  
Old 05-28-2018, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I hear you, but I still don't know why Grich is even in that company. He didn't have much power, didn't hit for average, won a few GGs early but nothing after that, 1800 career hits with a .266 average.
I'm with you on that, although I'll readily admit I know so little about Grich in the first place. But I'd suppose it means that WAR suggests Grich was more valuable than some of the numbers suggest - perhaps due to the era/ballparks he played in?
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  #18  
Old 05-28-2018, 01:22 PM
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That Bobby Grich must have been one hell of a defensive wizard. In 1973 he batted .250 with 12 HR's, 50 RBI's, 82 Runs Scored, 17 SB's (9 times caught), .760 OPS and he led the AL in WAR for Positional Players according to BR (by kind of a lot).

I'm guessing with WAR it's kind of a positional thing to. If there's a shortage of other quality 2nd baseman, it's going to boost your replacement level.
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  #19  
Old 05-28-2018, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
That Bobby Grich must have been one hell of a defensive wizard. In 1973 he batted .250 with 12 HR's, 50 RBI's, 82 Runs Scored, 17 SB's (9 times caught), .760 OPS and he led the AL in WAR for Positional Players according to BR (by kind of a lot).

I'm guessing with WAR it's kind of a positional thing to. If there's a shortage of other quality 2nd baseman, it's going to boost your replacement level.
There was a guy named Carew also playing.
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  #20  
Old 05-28-2018, 02:11 PM
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Grich's lifetime WAR is nearly double that of Steve Garvey's. Sorry, I know all the rap on Garvey, but that just does not square with reality IMO.
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