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  #61  
Old 06-10-2018, 07:07 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
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I'd have to do some looking up to be sure, but my impression of why Pedro had fewer starts is a combination of schedule and how he was handled.

The schedule struck me as something like pedro starts, 4 other guys start, then an off day. So instead of starting every 5 he started very 6th day sometimes. But I cold easily be wrong about that.
The handling I think was occasionally sliding him a day or so to get him matched up with the other teams ace. great matchups, and maybe a good overall strategy pairing Pedro with the players who were harder to beat. I'm almost positive that happened at least a couple times a year.
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  #62  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:20 AM
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the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
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In The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2001), James ranked Bobby Grich as the 107th greatest player of all-time. Keep in mind that several of the players on his top 100 either never played in the Major Leagues (their careers came prior to 1942), or they played on a very limited basis:

4. Oscar Charleston
9. Josh Gibson
17. Satchel Paige
25. Turkey Stearnes
43. Mule Suttles
52. Smokey Joe Williams
65. Buck Leonard
67. Cristobal Torriente
76. Cool Papa Bell
86. Willie Wells
95. Martin Dihigo

Therefore, it's clear that of the full-time Major League players, James, as of 2001, anyway, would put Bobby Grich in the top 100 all-time.

He has Grich 12th all-time at second base.

1. Joe Morgan
2. Eddie Collins
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Jackie Robinson
5. Craig Biggio
6. Nap Lajoie
7. Ryne Sandberg
8. Charlie Gehringer
9. Rod Carew
10. Roberto Alomar
11. Frankie Frisch
12. Bobby Grich
13. Lou Whitaker
14. Billy Herman
15. Nellie Fox
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  #63  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:42 AM
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For Peter,

Sorry I'm just now getting around to this. But in reference to your point about Grich's batting average being lower than Alan Trammell's:

The things that a hitter does to help his team can be summarized in two more or less equal groups:

1. Hitting for average
2. Everything else

"Secondary average" is a loose and approximate measure of the "everything else" group-walks, power and stolen bases, per at bat.

Overall secondary averages are almost the same as overall batting averages-but not for middle infielders. Second basemen tend to have secondary averages about 60 points lower than their batting averages, overall. Grich was an exception to that rule: a second baseman who did hit for power and did draw walks. The best secondary averages among second basemen:

1. Joe Morgan, .431
2. Maxie Bishop, .362
3. Rogers Hornsby, .362
4. Jackie Robinson, .355
5. Joe Gordon, .346
6. Davey Lopes, .344
7. Tony Lazzeri, .336
8. Bobby Grich, .330
9. George Grantham, .329
10. Eddie Stanky, .322
11. Eddie Collins, .322
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  #64  
Old 06-12-2018, 09:55 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
never played in the Major Leagues (their careers came prior to 1942)
I totally don't get that bit. Does he consider pre 1942 to not be major league?
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  #65  
Old 06-12-2018, 10:28 AM
dgo71 dgo71 is offline
Derek 0u3ll3tt3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
I totally don't get that bit. Does he consider pre 1942 to not be major league?
The players he listed are all Negro Leaguers.
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  #66  
Old 06-21-2018, 05:58 PM
PowderedH2O PowderedH2O is offline
Sam Lemoine
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Going back to the Grich question, I think the era that he played in and where he played had a lot to do with it. I don't know how many times I saw Alan Trammell play, but I can comfortably say it was several hundred times. How can I guess this? I had cable TV and access to American League teams starting in the mid 1980's. I saw the Tigers at least 10-15 times per regular season, plus all of the playoff games during Trammell's career. For guys like Garvey, how many times was he on television? The Dodgers were always a hot draw, plus you could see them on WGN or WTBS against the Cubs and Braves. I'd say I saw Garvey play at least 20-30 times per season from the 1977-1985.

Now, what about Grich? Grich played with the Orioles and Angels. Those teams didn't play on WGN or WTBS in the 1970's. For many fans, the only baseball game was the 1 PM NBC Game of the Week, and the ABC Monday Night Baseball game. How many times would you see Grich play in a season? 2-3 at most I would guess. Someone mentioned Rod Carew. He is a good example. Remember watching him with the Twins? No, seriously, do you remember? I don't. I collected his cards and I always saw him near the top of the batting stats, but how many times do I really remember seeing him as a Minnesota Twin? Maybe a couple in 1977 when he was pushing .400, but not before that. From 1973-76, I would bet the Twins were almost NEVER on national television.
So, I say all of this because we vote for who we know. Sportswriters didn't vote for Grich because half of them never saw him play. If you are going to get voted in without being seen, you better put up Rod Carew numbers. Grich didn't.
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