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  #21  
Old 04-10-2017, 06:47 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is online now
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Ted,

Great story. Joe was a character. We had some good laughs on the phone before he passed. He was super friendly one-on-one. And, he had the ONLY copy of Schulte (Front View) Piedmont 350 in existence! (As you know he also had the Doyle Error). For years, Joe kept insisting on our calls that he had a copy of the then unconfirmed Schulte (Front View) with Piedmont 350 but could not figure out how to send me a scan! I believed he had the card, but was blown-away that he didn't have a scanner (or at least couldn't figure out how to use it). He was old school -- which is actually endearing considering we are talking about old baseball cards that are cherished across generations.

Good stuff.

Scot

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Scot

Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.

Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.

Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.

Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").


TED Z
.

Last edited by sreader3; 04-10-2017 at 07:02 PM.
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  #22  
Old 04-10-2017, 07:56 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Plank mystery

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





T206 Plank has been a mystery for 108 years. In Dec 2006, after a lot of research, my "wild imagination" formed a theory for this card's scarcity..... T206 Plank theory

It was a popular thread with 113 responses; and, it is somewhat intricate. But I think you'll find it quite interesting.


.

I waited a long time to acquire this Plank, simply because I wanted one whose back was a SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #30.....in order to
complete my all--Sweet Cap, Factory #30 set. The majority of the Plank cards have Sweet Cap 350 backs.


OK, Plank's card is really no mystery in my mind anymore, since I read Connie Mack's response to a Philadelphia sports writer circa 1910.....
"The secret of Plank's pitching is no secret at all. It is a good strong arm, a powerful constitution to back it, and neither drinks, smokes,
chews tobacco, nor swears....
" **

Eddie Plank most likely informed ATC that he did not want his image portrayed on Tobacco cards. Being the low-keyed guy that he was,
he didn't "hype" it up like Wagner did. Let's hear your thoughts on this subject ?

**
"Connie Mack", by Norman Macht


TED Z
.
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  #23  
Old 04-10-2017, 09:15 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Hi Scot

One of Joe's early squabbles with me was over the Schulte card. It wasn't that I questioned whether he had this card,
I simply told him it was either a "scrap", or an anomaly.

Also, I noted that if an EPDG card of Schulte were to appear, then I would be convinced that it was a legitimate issue.

Well, we have yet to see an EPDG card.


TED Z
.
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  #24  
Old 04-10-2017, 09:31 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is online now
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It's hard to say whether the card is scrap. Looking at the card it is difficult to tell. And there are other unique front/back combos in T206. Heck, there are only two or three confirmed copies of Spencer with Piedmont 350 (although I recognize he exists with EPDG). I remain agnostic on Schulte 350's "scrapness."

Last edited by sreader3; 04-10-2017 at 09:36 PM.
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  #25  
Old 04-12-2017, 01:37 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference.....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





In 2008, a thread regarding an interesting 350-only series design that I refer to as the "A-B-C-D connection"...... T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"

Here are the 4 new Tobacco brands introduced during the printing of the 350-only Series....circa Spring / Summer 1910. The American Lithographic Co. artist designed
the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM having identical stylized FRAME and lettering. American Litho printed 190 subjects (listed here) to
fill out the 350-only series (as confirmed with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 and CYCLE 350 cards). Currently, the scarcer BROAD LEAF 350 and DRUM cards fall short of
this 190 intended design by approx. 16 subjects, and approx. 75 subjects, respectively. More new BROAD LEAF 350 and DRUM cards have surfaced in recent years, and
will continue to be discovered in the future.





The 190 subjects included in this series of these four T-brands

Abbott
Abstein
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Arndt
Atz
Barbeau
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Becker
Beckley
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain

Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Butler
Campbell
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Cassidy
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chappelle
Charles
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Clancy
Clark
Clymer

Cobb (portrait-red)
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan

Engle
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Fletcher
Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Grimshaw
Hall
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)

Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hulswitt
Hunter
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Knabe
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)

Kroh
Kruger
Laporte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Malarkey
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall
Mathewson (dark cap)
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
Mc Elveen
McGann
McGinley

McGinnity
McGlynn
McIntyre (Detroit)
Merritt
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Mitchell (Cinci)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moran (Providence)
Moriarty
Mullin (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin

O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelan
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Poland
Purtell
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm

Schlafly
Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Starr
Stephens
Strang
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielmann

Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson
Wright
Irv Young
Zimmerman


Here's my Frank Delehanty A-B-C-D connection......these are tough sub-sets to complete......so, let's see yours ?







Stay tuned....the next post here will expand on this sub-set.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 06-28-2017 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #26  
Old 04-13-2017, 07:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference.....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





Expanding on the A-B-C-D sub-set, Darren (posts #65 & 73) of T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection" added the 1910 COUPON cards, whose backs are
identical to the stylized design of the A-B-C-D cards. Providing us proof that the timeline of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set was issued Spring / Summer of 1910.


If a DRUM card of Mr. Chase ever shows up, I will have a chance to complete this A-B-C-C-D sub-set.







TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 06-28-2017 at 10:22 PM. Reason: Update scans.
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  #27  
Old 04-14-2017, 07:54 AM
2dueces 2dueces is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreader3 View Post
Hi Ted,

I would be remiss if I failed to mention my "Possible Heitman Errors" thread from February 2005 where I was taken to task by the late Joe P. for daring to question "The Monster" checklist, which at the time was regarded as gospel by some.

[I think this was the first public "outing" of Ames (Hands at Chest) and Doyle (Throwing) as potential 150-onlys and Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Latham, Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington) and Tannehill (No "L") as potential 460-onlys--hard to believe that this has only been public information for 12 years since it is is now so commonly accepted].

http://t.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76172

Have to chuckle now about Joe P.'s blowback. I'll always be grateful to the Net54 guys who came to my defense (including Brian Weisner, Joshua Levine, Rhett Yeakley and the late, great Jim Blumenthal) even though I was a newbie. And even Joe P. eventually came around.

Scot
The new members of the board need to read this thread from 12 years ago to get an insight of how this monster we call the T206 came about. Bill adds two posts one below and one that he receives packages with 2000 T206's at a time. Truly a hobby legend.

Posted By: William Heitman
This is Bill Heitman. Most, if not all, of the errors referred to were caught within about a year of publication of The Monster. They were all errors made by the publisher that I didn't catch in proofing the book. He also added the Farrah pictures without my knowledge. But, Denny was a great friend, and I let that slide. My original working checklist does not have these "errors". I notified everyone via articles in Trader Speaks of the publishing errors. Incidently, I have probably had in excess of 1,000,000 T206s in my possession. My collection was able to fill about 4800 spots on my working checklist. Also--thanks for the compliments.

Bill

Last edited by 2dueces; 04-14-2017 at 07:55 AM.
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  #28  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:27 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set


* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





There has been much controversy on this forum as to whether the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards belong to the T206 "family". And, much of this is due to mis-information.
So, here are the facts.... as Detective Sergeant Joe Friday (from the TV series, Dragnet) would ask...." Just the facts, man ? "......

The Macon (Georgia) Telegraph newspaper was running advertisements introducing ATC's COUPON cigarette brand in the Spring of 1910. And, as shown, in the prior post
here, the 1910 COUPON cards' backs were printed with the same stylized design as the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM cards (which we
know were issued in the Spring / Summer of 1910). The group of 48 subjects (Major Leaguers) were selected from an early print run of the 350-only series (illustrated in
the 48-card array shown here). And, the Southern Association subjects (20 cards) were printed from the 48 - Southern Leaguers in the T206 set. Furthermore, unlike the
T213-2 and T213-3 cards (with blue captions), the 1910 COUPON cards' captions were printed with Brown ink.

The minor exception with the 1910 COUPON (with respect to the T206 cards) is that American Litho printed the 1910 COUPON cards on "thinner" cardboard. This was done
simply because these cards were not intended to serve as Cigarette pack " stiffeners ". The initial marketing of the COUPON cigarette brand was not in packs, instead these
cigarettes were packaged in the standard cigarette cartons (11" x 3" x 2") of that era, which were labelled " COUPON Cigarettes ", and contained 100's of cigarettes. The
1910 Coupon cards were placed inside these cartons, or "spot-glued" on the outside of the carton (indicative of the red Cobb's paper loss on its back, as shown below).

Jefferson Burdick didn't have the benefit of the "Internet" when he included the 1910 COUPON set in with his classification of the T213-2 and T213-3 sets which were cards
issued 1914 - 1915 (his stated timeline). It's my opinion that Burdick would have included the T213-1 in his classification of the T206's, had he known what we now know.
Furthermore, we now know that the T213-2 and T213-3 cards were actually issued 1914 - 1919.

Click on this thread for the 1910 COUPON checklist.... FYI....1910 COUPON checklist (T213-1)


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects





The Six Super Prints are seldom seen with the 1910 COUPON advertisement.

.


.











TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-17-2017 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2017, 05:06 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dueces View Post
The new members of the board need to read this thread from 12 years ago to get an insight of how this monster we call the T206 came about. Bill adds two posts one below and one that he receives packages with 2000 T206's at a time. Truly a hobby legend.

Posted By: William Heitman
This is Bill Heitman. Most, if not all, of the errors referred to were caught within about a year of publication of The Monster. They were all errors made by the publisher that I didn't catch in proofing the book. He also added the Farrah pictures without my knowledge. But, Denny was a great friend, and I let that slide. My original working checklist does not have these "errors". I notified everyone via articles in Trader Speaks of the publishing errors. Incidently, I have probably had in excess of 1,000,000 T206s in my possession. My collection was able to fill about 4800 spots on my working checklist. Also--thanks for the compliments.

Bill

. .


This pamphlet size book by Bill Heitman started it all for many of us BB card collectors in the early 1980's. T206 cards were "hot" at the famous Willow Grove Show
in Pennsylvania in 1981. It is where and when I became "addicted" to collecting these gems. A T206 Vg-Ex common sold for only $2. And, a green or red Cobb sold
for only $15 - $20, each. Furthermore, if you were lucky to find a dealer at the Show selling a DRUM....you could get it for a mere $100.

Incidentally,
Dennis Eckes was the publisher of Jim Beckett's BB Card Price Guide (1st edition, 1979). Dennis published Bill Heitman's 32-page book "T206 The Monster" in 1980.

Dennis was fascinated with Farrah Fawcett. So what guy wasn't when she appeared on the scene in the late 1970's. Dennis included 6 poses of Farrah in Bill's book.


TED Z
.
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  #30  
Old 04-17-2017, 06:59 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference.....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





Jim Blumenthal started the "ball rolling" regarding the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card when he posted this thread in T2006...... Senator Russel's tobacco card collection......
Jim never waivered in his belief that this Ty Cobb card should have been classified as a T206.

Seven years ago this month, Jon Canfield posted this Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb thread that sparked some spirited discussion......including information revealing that the Ty Cobb
Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco was marketed in the Spring of 1910...... What We Have Learned About Ty Cobbs With a Ty Cobb Back
Check-it-out





TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 04-19-2017 at 08:12 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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