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  #1  
Old 06-05-2018, 01:32 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Default Harry Wright Scorecard in Clean Sweep

Hi all -

Let me know if anybody else has an opinion on this scorecard.

I believe that the scorecard in the listing is actually from two games, which would make sense since it's the front and back on a page.

The front shows the Troy Trojans losing to Boston on August 17, 1881 in a game that did not last 4 hrs and 55 minutes, but it ended at 4:55 pm.

The back is the Boston losing effort to Worcester on August 20, 1881.

It's still pretty cool, though.

Doug
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  #2  
Old 06-05-2018, 01:56 PM
Michael B Michael B is offline
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It states the first game ran from 3:30 to 4:55 p.m. so there is no mistaking the length of the game. Interesting item.
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  #3  
Old 06-05-2018, 03:00 PM
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These are two pages from Harry Wright's score books for 1881. Some pages have Wright's full signature, some have his initials, and some have neither. At one time, Wright's score books were in bound volumes for a few different year's. Apparently the owner of the 1881 volume decided there was money to be made be tearing the pages out of the volume. That is why there are usually two different games represented on the front and back of one sheet. I believe the Wright volumes for other years are still in tact, but I could be wrong. In 1995 volumes for 1878, 1879, and 1880 were part of the Mark Rucker auction. I'm unsure of their whereabouts.
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Old 06-05-2018, 03:08 PM
bigfanNY bigfanNY is offline
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I agree with Gary. This is a nice page with a small but clear signature. And the Auto is clearly the key factor to value. If you had a page from same book with no signature value would much less.
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  #5  
Old 06-05-2018, 03:40 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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As someone who was part of the original find of Harry Wright scorebooks back in 1990, it breaks my heart to see these books torn apart into individual pages. Both the 1881 and 1883 season books have been destroyed by greedy sellers who had no respect whatsoever for baseball history.

As others have said, this is the front and back of two separate games. The value is in the signature, which is substantial. As Gary noted, only a small number of pages have a full signature. The great majority are either initialed "H.W." or are left blank.

I had two of the original books in my collection at one point: the 1883, which no longer exists, and the 1879, which I sold to a major collector. Fortunately the 1879 will stay intact for many years to come.

Last edited by barrysloate; 06-05-2018 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 06-05-2018, 05:49 PM
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Amen, Barry. It's all about the money and similar to cutting up bats and uniforms to make chase cards. Maybe we should cut up the Mona Lisa or the Declaration of Independence so that people could get a piece. Why not? I have to admit to buying one of these sheets because Ross Barnes played in the game. I have never felt good about that purchase.

Last edited by GaryPassamonte; 06-05-2018 at 05:54 PM.
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  #7  
Old 06-05-2018, 06:15 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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You didn't do anything wrong Gary by buying it. What's done is done. You should just enjoy it.

Wright used to sell blank booklets in his sporting goods store. I believe each booklet was around 32 pages and could score 16 games. He used these books himself, often going through six or seven to complete a season. He would have them bound together, with leather covers, and the result were his famous scorebooks which he kept meticulously from 1878 to 1893 (there could have been other years but they are unknown).

The individual 32 page booklets stand nicely on their own, and I owned a couple of those too over the years. When those season books were first split, the individual sections were being offered for sale.

But when those booklets were torn up to sell as individual pages, the whole history was destroyed, since each individual page featured one team from each of two separate games. But somebody figured out the autographs were worth more than the scoresheets, and therein lies the problem.
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Old 06-05-2018, 11:45 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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I would love to have a full game, but am saddened to say that I am kind of interested in a page. I guess Gary and I are of like minds.
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  #9  
Old 06-06-2018, 04:39 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman View Post
I would love to have a full game, but am saddened to say that I am kind of interested in a page. I guess Gary and I are of like minds.
It's still a nice affordable way to get a Wright signature, on a document no less
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  #10  
Old 06-07-2018, 10:19 PM
Keith H. Thompson Keith H. Thompson is offline
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Default 1890 Harry Wright Scorebook(s)

I have the complete 1889 Harry Wright Scorebook (Lew Lipsett) and two of the 1890 individual books including the pre-season. A fascinating feature of the Wright scorebooks that I have seen are the detailed pre-season and post season books which contain baseball history otherwise difficult to research. My interest, of course is in the career of Sam Thompson.

My question for the Net54 members and for the NYC Dinner attendees in particular -- would the owner of any other 1890 Wright individual booklets share that information with me ?

Keith H Thompson
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  #11  
Old 06-08-2018, 08:45 AM
khkco4bls khkco4bls is offline
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It Pisses me off when they destroy history. GREEDY BASTARDS..
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  #12  
Old 06-08-2018, 09:34 AM
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I will play Devil's Advocate and am glad the Scorebook got broken up. It allowed collectors-including myself-to get a piece of history at an affordable price. Additionally, the scorecard themselves are still intact, it is not as though the buyer cut the signature out of the scorecard. With all the stolen Wright documents out there, it gave average collectors a chance at getting his signature and collecting a moment of history at the same time.
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:14 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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I'm not aware of stolen Harry Wright documents. Do you know of any specifically?
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  #14  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:29 PM
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  #15  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I'm not aware of stolen Harry Wright documents. Do you know of any specifically?
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/s...5bats-001.html
https://sabr.org/latest/nash-fbi-ret...auction-seller
https://nypost.com/2013/07/28/new-yo...d-sold-online/

It goes on and on....
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Old 06-08-2018, 01:21 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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Thanks. Those were of course part of the Al Spalding Collection, and it sounds like most of the stolen letters were written to Wright. So that wouldn't technically be from his hand. But I'm splitting hairs- clearly there is still a lot of stolen material circulating.
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Old 06-08-2018, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte View Post
Amen, Barry. It's all about the money and similar to cutting up bats and uniforms to make chase cards. Maybe we should cut up the Mona Lisa or the Declaration of Independence so that people could get a piece. Why not? I have to admit to buying one of these sheets because Ross Barnes played in the game. I have never felt good about that purchase.
There are some out there who would gladly cut up the Declaration. Lots of rare cuts .
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:17 PM
bigfanNY bigfanNY is offline
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And they would sell them to collectors trying to piece together a collection of singers of the Decloration of Independence..
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:27 PM
bigfanNY bigfanNY is offline
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But at the same time the marketplace discounts items like:scorecards, programs, yearbooks even Who's who that have multiple autographs. In the last REA I sold a Tiger program that sold for half what I could have gotten by cutting out the Mel Ott signature. Never mind the value of the other autographs. I personally cannot cut these things up but I do not vilify those that do they are just reacting to the market conditions. And until market changes it will continue to happen.
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:55 PM
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I once owned Wright's 1882 scorebook from his days with the Providence Grays. Unfortunately, it has long been sold. I am hoping that it is still intact.

Barry (or anyone else) - When do you think that Wright actually scored these? During the actual games, or sometime afterwards? The reason that I ask is that they are so meticulously done that it seems improbable to me that Wright actually had the time do this during the actual game. I know that the famous Kalamazoo Bat image shows Wright with what seems to be a scorebook in his hand, but I still wonder if he just took notes during the game and transposed them later on, or if he actually was able to create these fabulous scorebooks while the games were actually going on.

Last edited by Baseball Rarities; 06-11-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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  #21  
Old 06-11-2018, 03:34 PM
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That's a good question, Kevin. I would lean towards the score books being done in real time. Pitching changes and position player substitutions were minimumal at the time. I don't believe on field strategies were very complex either. Wright may have just been neat and scored the game while sitting back in his easy chair.
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:28 PM
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I have the June 26 - August 2, 1883 Providence booklet of Wrights.

I think I may have an answer regarding as to whether Harry Wright actually scored the games directly into these scorecards/scorebooks during the game. My answer is that sometimes he did and sometimes he didn't.

In some of these scored games Harry has multiple small tic marks for tracking assists, errors, etc. These were the games he scored during the game.

IMG_3378.jpg

In other games, he did not use these multiple tic marks and I believe he scored them on other scorecards and then entered them into the booklet later.

IMG_3379.jpg

For further proof I'll digress for a moment. On the back of each booklet, or at least the one I have, Wright has cut down a single scorecard and glued it to the back of the booklet to add a little color.

Back.jpg

I figured that scorecard may hold a clue so I pulled it back as best I could. Sure enough, it has a scored game on it and it's one of the games from my booklet. That game in my booklet did not have the multiple tic marks on it. So, I believe Harry scored that particular game on the individual scorecard and then added it to the scorebook later.

IMG_3360.jpg

IMG_3361.jpg

One more thought, I believe the scorebook Harry is holding in the dugout is actually one of these booklets.

Harry.jpg

He had these trimmed down and gilded before they were put into the the full year's scorebook. You can see where part of his writing is cut off from the top of the scored pages.

IMG_3362.jpg

Rob M
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  #23  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:56 AM
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fascinating stuff!
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:48 AM
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Hi Kevin,
There was no 1882 Providence score book in the big find. If you go back to my article in issue #5 of VCBC, I mentioned no books had been found from 1882 or 1887. The only year from Providence was 1883. So either you are mistaken or I am unaware of its existence.

Rob's point is interesting that some may or may not have been scored during the game. I always found the books to be incredibly neat and precise, so I simply guessed that Wright added these games to the season score books at his desk at a later time. But it is also possible that he was incredibly neat and precise by nature, and was able to deal with the rigors of managing a game and keeping score simultaneously.

And Rob. I once owned the entire 1883 season and had it in my collection for several years. When I see the sections broken up it just makes me sick. By the way, that was the only score book that had the Sage trade cards pasted in, but I believe 1883 was the year they were copyrighted, so no surprise.

Last edited by barrysloate; 06-12-2018 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:51 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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Also wanted to add that I never looked under any of those Sage scorecards, as they were pasted down pretty well. I thought they were blank trade cards. Interesting to see they were used by Wright to score.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Hi Kevin,
There was no 1882 Providence score book in the big find. If you go back to my article in issue #5 of VCBC, I mentioned no books had been found from 1882 or 1887. The only year from Providence was 1883. So either you are mistaken or I am unaware of its existence.
Barry, your are correct. I meant to say that I owned the 1883 book. I assume that I purchased it from the person who got it from you.

I see from Rob's post that someone who owned the book after I did decided to break it down into sections. It was intact when I last had it.

Last edited by Baseball Rarities; 06-12-2018 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:59 PM
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Rob - great info regarding the scoring. Thanks for posting that.
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