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  #1  
Old 12-02-2011, 04:06 PM
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Default So really...

...am I the only one drooling already over Henry's new auctions?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/hyee_auction...&_sop=1&_rdc=1

Ill.

Graig

Last edited by GKreindler; 12-02-2011 at 04:12 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-02-2011, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKreindler View Post
...am I the only one drooling already over Henry's new auctions?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/hyee_auction...&_sop=1&_rdc=1

Ill.

Graig
No, you aren't the only one. Now, where to find the money?
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  #3  
Old 12-02-2011, 04:29 PM
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Haha. DEFINITELY not in my wallet. But, some people are gonna walk away with some killer stuff - I can only imagine what's gonna be posted tonight.

And that DiMaggio negative from '33? Holy god.
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  #4  
Old 12-02-2011, 06:06 PM
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No...Must...Not...Look. Arrgh! Too Late!

Ok repeat after me...
Must buy presents for Family only.

Holy Schnikies! I don't know where he get it, but Wow.
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My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress).
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Other interests/sets/collectibles.
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My for sale or trade photobucket album
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  #5  
Old 12-02-2011, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKreindler View Post
Haha. DEFINITELY not in my wallet. But, some people are gonna walk away with some killer stuff - I can only imagine what's gonna be posted tonight.

And that DiMaggio negative from '33? Holy god.
Please forgive my ignorance in advance...

The original Negatives being offered are amazing/one of a kind/rare/etc... I get that. But what can you do with them (other than possibly printing off new photos?). Is there a way to display these? In front of a light, perhaps? I have always wondered what people do with the negatives, once they've acquired them.

Perhaps I am missing something obvious... you can't really frame them, so how do you guys display them?

Thanks!

Last edited by perezfan; 12-02-2011 at 07:00 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-02-2011, 07:51 PM
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Yee's auctions are to ebay what the REA spring catalog is the the vintage baseball world! Is it spring time yet??
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  #7  
Old 12-02-2011, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig View Post
Yee's auctions are to ebay what the REA spring catalog is the the vintage baseball world! Is it spring time yet??
Your spot-on Michael. Nowhere better for quality vintage original photos!

And tonight and tomorrow is nothing BUT photos! I keep hitting the refresh button, but it looks like nothing until 6pm Pacific...
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  #8  
Old 12-02-2011, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Please forgive my ignorance in advance...

The original Negatives being offered are amazing/one of a kind/rare/etc... I get that. But what can you do with them (other than possibly printing off new photos?). Is there a way to display these? In front of a light, perhaps? I have always wondered what people do with the negatives, once they've acquired them.

Perhaps I am missing something obvious... you can't really frame them, so how do you guys display them?

Thanks!
You know I bought a 1927 Yankee Team pose negative...super cool....from Yee a couple years back and don't know how to properly display it. I guess I could just get a nice sized picture made from it and frame the negative beside the picture? I haven't followed through with that idea yet
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  #9  
Old 12-02-2011, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Please forgive my ignorance in advance...

The original Negatives being offered are amazing/one of a kind/rare/etc... I get that. But what can you do with them (other than possibly printing off new photos?). Is there a way to display these? In front of a light, perhaps? I have always wondered what people do with the negatives, once they've acquired them.

Perhaps I am missing something obvious... you can't really frame them, so how do you guys display them?

Thanks!
I've often wondered the same thing Mark. I'm told that many of the negative collectors are well healed and extremely competitive. Good thing that you and I don't collect them, huh Mark? That's all we need would be to run into another bunch of deep pockets, as if we don't already have that issue to deal with as it is...
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  #10  
Old 12-02-2011, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig View Post
You know I bought a 1927 Yankee Team pose negative...super cool....from Yee a couple years back and don't know how to properly display it. I guess I could just get a nice sized picture made from it and frame the negative beside the picture? I haven't followed through with that idea yet
Michael. I remember you posted that in the Bambino thread. What a historically important piece. I really mean it. Cooperstown worthy. Congrats!

I would suggest to give Henry a call after these auctions are done (since he's a one man show and will be swamped for awhile). I'm certain he'll steer you in the right direction.

Or maybe we have some glass plate negative collectors here on the board that can share some of their insight. My best, Jimmy
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  #11  
Old 12-02-2011, 08:40 PM
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Thanks for the really kind words Jimmy! Yeah it's a shame it's still sitting in the original package Yee used to ship it out to me. I'm confident a negative collector will chime in. Take care, Michael
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  #12  
Old 12-02-2011, 08:45 PM
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Tick Tock, Tick Tock
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  #13  
Old 12-02-2011, 08:47 PM
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Tick Tock, Tick Tock
You're killing me Mike!
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  #14  
Old 12-02-2011, 09:03 PM
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Here they come...first two out of the shoot are Clark Griffith and Ty Cobb
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  #15  
Old 12-02-2011, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekingofclout View Post
I've often wondered the same thing Mark. I'm told that many of the negative collectors are well healed and extremely competitive. Good thing that you and I don't collect them, huh Mark? That's all we need would be to run into another bunch of deep pockets, as if we don't already have that issue to deal with as it is...
Jimmy, buy the negative and have a professional create ten numbered prints (including at least one massive one). Keep one, sell nine, promising no more will be made, stick the negative in a drawer as it's useless for anything other than making prints.
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  #16  
Old 12-02-2011, 09:57 PM
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Jimmy, buy the negative and have a professional create ten numbered prints (including at least one massive one). Keep one, sell nine, promising no more will be made, stick the negative in a drawer as it's useless for anything other than making prints.
I like that Scott. But I'm not quite sure if I would own the copyrights just because I owned the negative. Maybe one of the board's Barristers could check in with a legal opinion.
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  #17  
Old 12-02-2011, 09:59 PM
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Yeah I've wondered that myself.
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  #18  
Old 12-02-2011, 10:13 PM
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OK, now I'm starting to drool
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  #19  
Old 12-02-2011, 10:30 PM
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OK, now I'm starting to drool
Starting to? Hell, Grace put a giant bib on me over an hour ago!
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  #20  
Old 12-02-2011, 11:35 PM
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YIKES!!!!
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  #21  
Old 12-03-2011, 12:03 AM
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And that DiMaggio negative from '33? Holy god.
Even scarier to think how incredible that image would look on canvas, in color, with a Graig Kreindler signature nestled right below it...
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  #22  
Old 12-03-2011, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Please forgive my ignorance in advance...

The original Negatives being offered are amazing/one of a kind/rare/etc... I get that. But what can you do with them (other than possibly printing off new photos?). Is there a way to display these? In front of a light, perhaps? I have always wondered what people do with the negatives, once they've acquired them.

Perhaps I am missing something obvious... you can't really frame them, so how do you guys display them?

Thanks!

I love negs. It's hard to explain. I think it's the rarity coupled with the fragility, coupled with the fact you can often find great images for less then the price of the more common print because there's not as much competition for them, since most people don't know what to do with them.

I really like when they come in their original press or studio photographer sleeves.

No you can't display them on their own. You actually want to keep them in a cool, dry, dark place at all times.

You can make prints and display them, just like any other photo. I've actually got a scanner that does a beautiful job with all sizes of negs, and every once in awhile I'll play around with a few in photoshop. That said, most of my negs are packed away, never to be touched. Someday I tell myself......someday.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekingofclout View Post
I like that Scott. But I'm not quite sure if I would own the copyrights just because I owned the negative. Maybe one of the board's Barristers could check in with a legal opinion.
My understanding is that anything before 1923 (I think that's right) is public domain, so you don't own the copyright - no one does. But that doesn't matter - you have the only negative and you are the one creating the limited edition prints.

What's always baffled me is, while no one owns the printed image, do you own the scan of the printed image; i.e - can I use someone's scan of a pre-1923 image?
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  #24  
Old 12-03-2011, 12:36 AM
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Chuck,

I'm praying I can make that happen someday!!

Graig
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  #25  
Old 12-03-2011, 01:23 AM
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My understanding is that anything before 1923 (I think that's right) is public domain, so you don't own the copyright - no one does. But that doesn't matter - you have the only negative and you are the one creating the limited edition prints.

What's always baffled me is, while no one owns the printed image, do you own the scan of the printed image; i.e - can I use someone's scan of a pre-1923 image?
I would really like to hear from someone who actually knows the ins and outs of copyright law on this. Not to disparage the thoughts that others have given, but when it comes to legal matters, I tend not to rely on thoughts and opinions no matter how learned.

I'm pretty sure Runscott is correct on the pre-1923 images, but quickly lose my grip on things after that date. From what I have gleaned from my previous halting attempts to figure it out, the copyright of an photographic image (post-1923) is essentially retained by the photographer unless he specifically transfers it to someone else, regardless of whether he retains the original negatives or not. Apparently this even applies to anonymous snapshots taken by amateur photographers. How in the world you would research to find out who the photographer of a particular unmarked photo was, I have no idea.

I realize that for all practical purposes, there are many many images out there, sports-related or not, that if you used them commercially, the true copyright holder (or their heirs, if deceased) would either never run across the re-used image or realize their rights were infringed upon. I'd still like to know what SHOULD be done though, as well as what happens when unlawful copies of photos are made and sold (which I'm sure would be the case with 99% of the repros you see on eBay). Or rather I should say what would be the penalty if caught, as I am equally sure that most of the unauthorized repros on eBay and elsewhere "fly under the radar" so to speak and are never caught or reported.

I've got a lot of other related questions, but I'll stop typing unless someone with legitimate knowledge of copyright law volunteers to endure them
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  #26  
Old 12-03-2011, 09:38 AM
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Regarding copyright law, well, I might be able to lend a hand. Sort of.

One of the big reasons that I don't sell prints of my artwork has to do with all of that stuff. As it stands, when I sell a painting to a client, technically there's no need for me to sit and fret about those laws because I'm selling an original, one-of-a-kind piece of art. From what I've learned from intellectual property lawyers is that it's only when you get into the practice of selling prints, you're starting to use the image (whether it's my painting or a photograph from the Daily News) for commercial purposes.

So, here's where things get a little tricky...

Imagery-wise, if it's in the public domain (like the images in the Bain collection at the Library of Congress) then you're in good shape. Otherwise, you have to open up your wallet, because the photographer (or person[s] who own the rights to the image[s]) has the copyright on his/her side for at least 50 years after his/her death. As you can imagine, plenty of companies specialize in handling those images (as well as their copyrights) and are in the business of making money solely on their various usages. These are places like Corbis, Getty, AP and many of the other conglomerates that you might see stamped on the back of your photos (or are mentioned in Yee's book). When it comes to making prints of one of their photos, they have representatives who will guide you through the whole process of the copyright - how long it lasts, what size the image would be, how large of a print run you'd be doing, where it would be seen, etc. And of course, all of that stuff is stipulated within a written contract and ends up being a pretty solid way of getting into the print business.

But, here's where things get REALLY tricky...

Since these images (and in this case, the negatives Henry has in his auction) depict famous baseball players, there's more to consider than just photography rights. The people at Corbis will even tell you that while dealing with them - that you're buying the rights to the image itself, not the intellectual property within. Plenty of these ballplayers (really, the majority of the deceased Hall of Famers) have their estates represented by larger companies who can be QUITE litigious if they feel their client's likeness is being used without them getting their cut. For instance, CMG Worldwide manages the copyrights for a plethora of ballplayers, including Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Wagner and a cast of hundreds. They represent estates of other sports figures, as well as a ton famous actors/actresses (Marilyn, James Dean), musicians (Chuck Berry, Ella Fitzgerald), and even trademarks (Buffer's "Let's get ready to rumble"). As you can imagine, these guys are no joke.

So, the problem is, if you bought a negative of Babe Ruth, you might be able to clear the photography rights issue to sell your prints, but in order to not have beef with a place like CMG, they would have to be paid. A lot. Unfortunately, the same goes for MLB and even the MLBPA. Since you'd be making commercial use of that NY logo, or the name on the jersey, it's easy for them to step in and ask for a slice of the pie. And by 'ask', I mean 'take.'

Granted, there are THOUSANDS (if not hundreds of thousands) of people who sell prints of these players without attaining said rights. You can see plenty of them on eBay and other photography websites. I would imagine that these companies don't come after them because they're small potatoes for the most part. In other words, they're not making a huge amount of money from selling their prints on eBay or wherever. They're able to slide underneath the radar.

You might notice, however, that a company like Photofile has a bunch of stickers and logos on each photograph they sell. That means that every one of those groups holds some sort of copyright in Photofile's efforts, whether it's the photographers, MLB, the Hall of Fame, CMG or whomever. And even then, Photofile still has to submit each image to a team of people who determine whether that what they're putting out is a suitable way to 'sell' that brand, and whether or not their rights are being violated in any way. And believe me, Photofile pays a small fortune to each to be able to use their intellectual property annually. But of course, they're a huge company, so they can afford it.

Case in point, I remember when I was just starting out painting these baseball images, say 2003 or so. At that point, I was 23, somewhat fresh out of college and still living in my parent's basement. I made a painting of Mickey Mantle that I thought could be nice to try and make prints from. I knew nothing about copyrights then, but I figured that I would at least have to have permission from Mantle's estate to do so. I got in contact with them, and to start things off, they thanked me for even doing so - stating that most people purposely ignore that route. Then, after telling them that I was hoping to make about 100 prints at a size that was somewhere in the neighborhood of 16" x 20" or so, the hammer fell. They wanted 25 prints for their own use (fine), 10% of royalties from what I sell (fine), and $25,000 up front (sh*t). I didn't feel all that well when I got off the phone with them.

There have been PLENTY of artists who have made similar artistic renderings of famous sports icons, sold prints without the permission of these estates, and then have been called out and sued by their respective subjects. The most famous of those lawsuits was between the artist Rick Rush and Tiger Woods from about 10 years ago:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/03/sp...lf/03GOLF.html

Rush won, I believe. And so did his lawyer's wallets. They won BIG TIME.

Hopefully I'm not putting the fear of God into anyone who wants to sell prints and the like...but before doing so, I think it's definitely important to know that there's some risk involved if the proper parties don't get their proper cut.

Anywho, I'm not sure if all of this makes sense. It's 9:30 on a Saturday morning, and I wish I was sleeping in. But yeah, hopefully it's somewhat coherent, and sheds some light into the whole issue...

And of course, if anyone has questions that they think I might be able to help with, just ask!

Graig

Last edited by GKreindler; 12-03-2011 at 11:02 AM.
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  #27  
Old 12-03-2011, 12:10 PM
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Wow Graig, I didnt know all of this stuff. I assumed there was some legalities involved but didnt realize how complicated it all was. So, I guess I will get off your but about making prints of your work....although I would still love to see it happen one day!!!! LOL
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  #28  
Old 12-03-2011, 12:45 PM
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Haha, no worries, Andrew.

I really hope the right situation presents itself at some point. Either way, I know Dean's gonna put together a coffee table book in the coming years - though I'm terribly scared as to what hurdles we'll have to jump over for that to happen, too!

Hopefully I'll still be alive for it when it does happen!



Graig
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  #29  
Old 12-03-2011, 02:10 PM
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Graig,
Good info, and I'm truly sorry that there are so many gilded hoops to jump through just to reproduce your own work. Well, whenever the book does finally happen, you know there are many of us here who will be buying at least one copy, if not multiples (you know, one to keep "mint" and one to wear out with all our ogling) In the meantime, keep up the good work, and don't let any of that drool drip on the canvas!
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  #30  
Old 12-03-2011, 02:23 PM
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Considering some of the threads on Net54 right now, what a fascinating image this is. Wonder if any of these balls survived or are in somebody's collection right now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1932-Origina...item3cbf478d92


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