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  #1  
Old 01-18-2008, 10:17 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

American Lithographic Company in NYC designed the 522 cards in the T206 set by producing 507 different "gems"
of artwork. Two were captioned erroneously (Magie & Doyle Nat'l) so they are just "misfits" of the 507. Of the 15,
the first 11 repeated designs shown here are variations of the original ones issued in the the 150 Series. These
repeated designs (or "twins") have different background colors, uniform changes, or reflect a team change (and
some are slightly cropped from their 150 Series counterpart).

The first 6 subjects (of the 11) on display here are the SUPER PRINTS which are in the 350/460 Series and can
be found with as many as 24 different Tobacco brand backs representative of the 350/460 Series (except that
their American Beauty 350 back is the Frame version, and these 6 cards do not exist with American Beauty 460
backs).



....................150 Series.......................350 Series................460 Series





...................150 Series.......................350-only Series




...................150 Series.......................350 Series..................460 Series



................................................35 0-only Series..................460 Series



These St. Louis variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs.






TED Z

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  #2  
Old 01-18-2008, 11:25 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: barrysloate

Some of the repeated designs are identical or nearly so, like Kleinow and Elberfeld, but others have considerable cropping and color differences, such as Chase and M.Brown.

And one of the most interesting is the Cobb, which is identical except for the spacing of the serifs in the "D" on the jersey.

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Old 01-18-2008, 11:25 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: robert a

I guess Schulte front view with Chicago instead of Cubs would've been another one had it made the cut.

Rob

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  #4  
Old 01-18-2008, 12:00 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: barry arnold

Fascinating,illuminative work as always, TRex.

The Matty faces look so different to me, compared to the rest of the crowd.
Any idea why? Or am I staring at it a bit too autohypnotically!!

best,

barry

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  #5  
Old 01-18-2008, 12:04 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: peter ullman

nice work Ted...card talk...how unusual!!! The Cobb/Matty poses to me also look quite different from each other. It must be the eyes!

pete in mn

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  #6  
Old 01-18-2008, 12:17 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: MVSNYC

it is refreshing to actually discuss cards themselves, thanks ted.

they might have used 2 different artists on the chase & matty? the faces look so different in both. just a thought.

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  #7  
Old 01-18-2008, 12:29 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Trae R.

Mr. Z., I look forward to meeting you some day. Thanks for all you do. I always enjoy your posts!

*
*
*
-------------------------------------------------
All Things T206: http://www.T206.org
eBay Made Easy: http://www.PreWarAuctions.com
T205.org Coming Soon!

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  #8  
Old 01-18-2008, 01:55 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: DMcD

Ted's post is one for the N54 Archives imho.

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  #9  
Old 01-18-2008, 02:52 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: PC

Need to add Bender trees/no trees to the list.

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  #10  
Old 01-18-2008, 03:28 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: J Hull

Every time I see those two Lundgren cards side by side it makes me scratch my head. He's the only player in the set pictured with both a major league team and a minor league team. Why him?

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  #11  
Old 01-18-2008, 03:47 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Carl Lundgren's Major League pitching career ended early in 1909. Then, when ATC was designing
the 350-only Series for release in 1910....they included his Minor League card (since they already
had the Litho of his 150 Series card).
However, they mainly printed his KC card with Piedmont 350, Sweet Cap 350 Fac. 30 backs. Very
rarely it can be found with a Carolina Brights and El Principe de Gales back. So, with this card es-
sentially available with only 2 backs, it too, is not as easy to find as others in the 350 Series.

TED Z

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  #12  
Old 01-18-2008, 04:51 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Alan U

This is a great post!

The Matty does look almost like a different artist, but I think the Chase has just been tilted upright a little bit to the left.

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  #13  
Old 01-18-2008, 06:02 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I didn't include the two Chief Bender cards in this list of "twin" poses since there are sufficient dif-
ferences between these two poses to suggest that there were two separate artistic renderings.

What has always struck me as being strange......is why they removed the tree background in the
subsequent printing of this card ?
Perhaps, Scot Reader can chime in here on this question ?

......................................350-only Series............................................ ........350/460 Series





TED Z

edited scan size

Scan lost....edited to restore scan.

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  #14  
Old 01-18-2008, 06:37 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: PC

I think the Benders were both rendered from the same photograph, although the artistic differences are greater than the other examples.

The Mattys seem different to almost the same extent. Similar to the two Benders, the Matty faces are different, the poses are angled differently, the belts, etc.

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  #15  
Old 01-18-2008, 07:27 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Jim Parker

Ok, forgive me for this newbie question but I haven't seen it mentioned in other threads, but can the great T-Rex please help me understand why the t206 designers considered it a 460 series? Do we have a good handle on how ATC came to the figure of 460 subjects, when there were in fact 522 cards total? Is it as simple as there were 62 cards that happen to be of subjects already accounted for in the set (like the 4 cobbs)? I have been following Ted's every post for years now and just now it occurred to me that I don't know where the number 460 came from.

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  #16  
Old 01-18-2008, 08:10 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: T206Collector

I started a post about the six super prints a few months back, focused primarily on the question of why did they need to repaint those six cards for the mass production? Why not just issue them en masse? And if you were going to repaint Matty, why use a different artist, which to me, it is clear they did.... Unanswerable questions, I know, but that's why I love the #521.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

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  #17  
Old 01-18-2008, 08:47 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JIM P

First, let's start with a 522 card T206 set (no Magie or Joe Doyle error).

Then, we remove the 48 Southern Leaguers and the 15 Repeats; therefore....522 - 48 - 15 = 459 Initial Designs


The American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in 1909 initially planned the 150 Series to consist of 150 cards.

The 2nd Series (1910) ATC planned to add another 200 cards. So, the total (150 + 200), hence the "350 Series".

The 3rd series ATC planned for a total of 110 cards (150 + 200 + 110), hence "460 Series".

However, the actual number of Subjects (or designs) in these series is as follows......

Initial
Designs

155........150 Series

201........350 Series

103........460 Series
____

459......total Initial Designs
.48......So. Lge. additional Designs
____
507......Set total



T-Rex TED

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  #18  
Old 01-18-2008, 08:53 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Dave Hornish

Personally, I've always wondered about backs that state 350-460 subjects. Always thought that was a little bizarre.

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  #19  
Old 01-18-2008, 09:14 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

As you know....the "350-460" labeling only applies to the Piedmont and Sweet Caporal backs. The American Beauty, Broad Leaf,
Cycle, and Sovereign backs are strictly "460". My understanding regarding the "350-460" labeling is that it initially applied to the
interim series that we identify as the 350/460 Series which includes 61 subjects.

TED Z

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  #20  
Old 01-18-2008, 09:22 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Dave Hornish

I guess those backs just show how dynamic the production of the set was. Still, they strike me as being wishy washy....different times for sure.

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  #21  
Old 01-18-2008, 09:36 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Jantz

Great stuff. Thanks for sharing. I have a question though. Do you take personal checks?

Seriously though, thanks for taking the time to post this info for us. I always learn something from your T206 posts.

Jantz

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  #22  
Old 01-18-2008, 10:50 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: barry arnold

thanks for the clarification re: the Lundgren KC.
i have the Carolina Brights back and have only seen a couple in the last
couple of years.

super work,Ted.

best,

barry

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  #23  
Old 01-19-2008, 05:34 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry,
I have Lundgren with both backs:






Both are very tough.... And Barry let me know if you ever want to part with yours.... Be well Brian

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  #24  
Old 01-19-2008, 09:44 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Jason L

That first column of the 6 super-prints have more white in their eyes than does that second column.
Those eyes are certainly a differentiating characteristic for those cards.
Very interesting to see them lined up like this.

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  #25  
Old 01-19-2008, 09:58 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have observed that the colors in the 2nd Series (350) are richer in color (especially BLUE) than the 150 Series. Other than
the Waddell portrait in the 150 Series there are no deep Blue colors to be found in the 150 Series....such as the Blue Chase
portrait.
Also, the 150 Series Elberfeld (NY) has Brown eyes....while the 350 Series Elberfeld (Washington portrait) has Blue eyes.

TED Z

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  #26  
Old 01-19-2008, 10:53 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: barry arnold

Brian W
thanks for letting me see your CB and EPDG.
they're beauts.
i doubt i'll ever part with mine but if i do decide to my Tarheel buddy will
be the first to hear!

best,

barry

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  #27  
Old 01-19-2008, 03:16 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for the kind words. Perhaps, we'll run into each other at the National in Chicago.

Or, the Philly Show in Reading, PA or the Cooperstown Show in the VFW Bldg. on HOF weekend.

TED Z

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  #28  
Old 01-20-2008, 06:40 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey guys and gals........I thought this was a Vintage Base Ball card Forum ?

Or, did I enter the wrong website....did I click unto a forum on the derivatives of OIL....namely PLASTICS ?

Can we get back to basic cardboard and paper reflections of our favorite players or sets in this hobby......
namely BB cards ? ?


T-Rex TED

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  #29  
Old 01-21-2008, 06:08 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your observation is very astute......
"The Cobb/Matty poses to me also look quite different from each other. It must be the eyes!"

A 6-color process was used to print the T206's. Joseph Knapp, the founder of the American Litho. Co.,
invented the multi-color, 6 cylinder press that produced these cards. The 3rd phase of the process in
the printing of the T206's was the application of Brown ink. It appears that more Brown ink used in the
printing of the 1st (150) series than they did in the 2nd (350) series.

This is evident with respect to the eyes and eyebrows in the 1st series Matty (white cap) card, when
compared with the eyes of the 2nd series Matty (dark cap).....close-up scan of the Matty's will follow.

Now, let's apply this theory by comparing the Green Cobb with the Red Cobb......

The eyes of the Green Cobb are Brown, his hair is darker, and the Detroit logo on his uniform is Brown.




While the eyes of the Red Cobb are Blue, his hair color is lighter, and the "D" on his uniform is Grayish.




TED Z

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  #30  
Old 01-22-2008, 08:24 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for the kind words.....but, why do you ask....." Do you take personal checks? "

TED Z

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  #31  
Old 01-22-2008, 08:24 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

A close-up scan of both the Matty's illustrates the difference in the application of Brown ink between
the 1st and 2nd Series. The eyes and eyebrows in the 1st series Matty (white cap) card are accented
with Brown coloring. It appears to give him a more youthful look.

The facial features of the 2nd Series Matty (dark cap) are lacking any accenting in his eye area, which
creates an illusion of different artwork. But not so, this picture of Matty was very popular in 1908-10.
It is the same picture that is on the cover page of his Testimonial Tribute piece.




TED Z

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  #32  
Old 01-22-2008, 02:58 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: T206Collector

I completely agree that the Matty Dark Cap is the pose that is most prevalent in Matty's other issues. He is skinnier, with more classical features under his dark cap. Under his white cap, however, he is pudgier, with different facial features than his dark capped twin. It is for this reason that I think two different artists drew up these Matty cards. Though I obviously also agree that different ink was used in each.

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  #33  
Old 01-23-2008, 06:53 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL M

No argument here.....it appears that the T206 designers (or Amer. Litho. printers) got carried
away with BROWN ink in their 1st Series. As we well know Matty had Blue eyes; and, the Matty
portrait in this series does depict him with lighter colored eyes. So, the Matty (white cap) is a
strange printing.

Blue-eyed Cobb is another example of 1st Series Brown eyes vs 2nd Series Blue eyes (see above
scans).

TED Z

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  #34  
Old 01-23-2008, 07:44 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Matt

The artist of Matty's T3 seems to have combined aspect of both the dark cap and white cap version of the T206, with the skinny face of the dark cap, but the cap is white and the collar has the shadowing from the white cap T206.

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  #35  
Old 01-23-2008, 08:09 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Mike

I'm inclined (pun intended) to agree with you, Paul - that the differences go beyond simple variations in the ink (which are there, no doubt). I'd go as far as to say that all six Super-prints are re-drawn - if not by another artist, at least by the same artist from the same pose, just "re-done".

Chase throwing is different in all same ways as Matty Dark/White Cap. His portrait has the same facial pudginess, composition and "tilt-of-the-head" differences, too, only they're slighter. Chance portrait is even closer (as are Evers and Cobb), but it just "feels" different in a "*blink*" sort of way.

I know this was discussed in some detail on one of your threads before (October) to uncertain results... maybe the Photoshop gurus that helped resolve the ghost image resolutions can work some similar magic on these "twins".

--
Mike

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  #36  
Old 01-24-2008, 01:11 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

MATT

My impression is that the T3 Matty is essentially the same artwork found on the White Cap Matty.....
in that his hair color is light and the eye area coloration is the same. The only difference is that they
added the NY lettering found in the Dark Cap pose on his chest and sleeve. And, I think the fuller face
appearance on the White Cap Matty is due to the lack of "reddish rouge" that makes the face of the
Dark Cap Matty to appear thinner.

What really puzzles me here, in comparing these three pictures, is that the White Cap Matty card was
designed as early as 1908. While the T3 was issued in 1910-11....so why didn't they use the Dark Cap
Matty artwork for the T3 ?


Turkey Red (T3) card of Christy Mathewson





TED Z

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  #37  
Old 01-24-2008, 02:08 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Reprised

American Lithographic Company in NYC designed the 522 cards in the T206 set by producing 507 different
gems of artwork. Two were captioned erroneously (Magie & Joe Doyle) so they are just "misfits" of the 507.
Therefore, 15 of the 522 are repeated designs (or "twins"). Of these 15 designs, 11 were initially issued in
the the 150 Series, and with their twins are first shown here. These twins have different background colors,
uniform changes, or reflect a team change (some are slightly cropped from their 150 Series counterparts).

The first 6 subjects displayed here are the SUPER PRINTS.....which were issued in the 350/460 Series; and,
can be found with as many as 24 various Tobacco backs representative of the 350/460 Series (except their
American Beauty 350 back is the Frame version. Also, these 6 cards do not exist with American Beauty 460
backs).



....................150 Series.......................350 Series................460 Series





...................150 Series.......................350-only Series




...................150 Series.......................350 Series..................460 Series



................................................35 0-only Series..................460 Series



These St. Louis variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs.






TED Z

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  #38  
Old 02-19-2008, 08:02 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

T206 collectors have asked....why the 150, 350, 460 Subjects in the three Series of the T206 issue since there are 524 cards.
I think this can be explained by looking at the entire set in terms of its "designs".

Given a complete T206 set of 524 cards, let's first remove Magie & Joe Doyle errors; hence 522 subjects

Then, we remove the 48 Southern Leaguers and the 15 Repeated designs; therefore....522 - 48 - 15 = 459 Initial Designs

The American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in 1909 initially planned the 150 Series to consist of 150 designs.

The 2nd Series (1910) ATC planned to add another 200 designs. So, the total (150 + 200), hence the "350 Series".

The 3rd series (late 1910 to early 1911) ATC planned for a total of 110 designs (150 + 200 + 110), hence "460 Series".

However, the actual number of designs in these series is as follows......

Initial
Designs

155........150 Series

200........350 Series

104........460 Series (56..350/460 + 48..460-only)
____

459......total Initial Designs
.48......So. Lge. additional Designs
____
507......Set total Designs


TED Z

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  #39  
Old 02-19-2008, 08:24 AM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

That sounds reasonable, Ted.


The Old Mill Southern Leaguers have

"Base Ball Series Selection from Texas, South Atlantic, Virginia and Southern Leagues"


I think the Hindu's have

"Base Ball Subjects Large Assortment"


But the Piedmont cards have

"Base Ball Series 350 Subjects"



I agree with the math... chronologically, are the Southern Leaguers before, after or contemporary with the 350 series??

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  #40  
Old 02-19-2008, 01:04 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The initial Southern League series of 42 Subjects (South Atlantic, Southern & Virginia Leaguers) must of closely coin-
cided with the 150 Series. Scot Reader's research tells us this and a huge find of 400+ T206's reinforces this. Several
years ago I was fortunate to acquire this original T206 collection from So. Carolina, which consisted of 388 cards (all
Piedmont 150 backs) and 26 Southern Leaguers (all with Old Mill backs).

Also, in 1909 ATC started printing the 150 Series cards with Brown Hindu backs and this included the Southern Lger.
series. However, our resident Net54 Hindu expert, Brian Weisner, accounts for just 37 of the 42 Subjects. So, it looks
like 5 of these So. Lgers. are Hindu "no prints".

Subsequently, in 1910 when the 350 Series was issued, 6 additional So. Lgers. (representing the Texas Lge.) were is-
sued with Old Mill backs. Then all 48 So. Lgers. were printed with Piedmont 350 backs.

TED Z

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  #41  
Old 02-23-2008, 12:33 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

A long time, great friend of mine who reads the Net54 threads called me and has convinced me
that these two Matty cards were drawn by 2 different artists. My friend is a professional artist;
therefore, I have been convinced. So to some of you who have posted and said the same, I will
now defer to your opinions.

I do still wonder, however, why American Lithographic used the printing plate of the older series
Matty for the T3 picture in 1911, instead of the newly drawn plate ?


150/350 Series (1909)............................................ .........350/460 Series (1910)




Turkey Red (1911)




TED Z

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  #42  
Old 02-23-2008, 12:42 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: barrysloate

It seems likely that the American Lithograph Company employed dozens of artists. It is quite possible that several other renditions of Matty pitching were drawn but were rejected, and the two best ones made it into the set.

Of the 15 examples Ted cites, several such as Kleinow, G. Brown, Lundgren, and Smith among others were done by the same artist and the pictures were just recropped. In the case of Chance, Matty, and others, it is likely different artists drew the poses but used the same photograph as a model.

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Old 02-24-2008, 02:56 PM
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Default Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The Six Super-Prints and M. Brown are Subjects in the 350/460 series (1910); and, these cards were
produced approx. 1 year apart from their original 150 series (1909) counterparts. Perhaps, given this
time interval....a different artist (for each) did redraw, or modify their lithographs.

The other 8 "twins" (G. Browne, Dahlen, Demmitt, Elberfeld, Kleinow, Lundgren, O'Hara, and F.Smith)
are identical pictures with only changes in team markings and their captions.

I think we can all agree on this fact.

TED Z

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