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  #1  
Old 10-16-2018, 08:16 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
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Default Input needed on a developing ebay buyer situation

So I sold a PSA graded card. The buyer received the card and is claiming the card I sent is other than the one I had listed in the auction. He sent me an image of the same card with the same grade (clearly no where near as nice as the one I sold him), claiming I sent him the wrong card and is demanding I send him the correct one or a refund. He has already sent 7 emails and requested a return through ebay.

I double checked the group of cards (not a large one) I have listed, just to make sure I am not missing something. I own no other cards that are the same card and grade. I plan to call PSA to further confirm some details (1 - I believe I had the card I sold graded myself and it has been in my possession since and 2 - to see what I can find out about the card he is claiming I sent (which I never owned). I just sent him an email trying to gently call foul and encouraging him to not take this further. The only thing that is giving me any pause is he is an ebay user since 2014 with 526 positive feedbacks.

Here is the original transaction:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/151874336412


Your experience and suggestion(s) are appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 10-16-2018, 08:34 PM
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BLongley BLongley is offline
Brian
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I assume the one he is showing you he received is a different cert#, etc? And itís still a PSA 7? Perhaps try to look at the cert# on the one he is claiming you sent him to see if you can find it being sold either on eBay or through another venue through the PSA Auction Results?
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  #3  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:01 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
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Default Great suggestions Brian

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLongley View Post
I assume the one he is showing you he received is a different cert#, etc? And itís still a PSA 7? Perhaps try to look at the cert# on the one he is claiming you sent him to see if you can find it being sold either on eBay or through another venue through the PSA Auction Results?
I already searched PSA sales history - no record of the one he is showing an image of. Based on your suggestion just looked at ebay current and completed listings - nothing there. Anyone able to check VCP - the card in question is a PSA 7 1969 Roberto Clemente cert # 14491605

Here are the emails he has sent so far:

4:02PM
Good afternoon. Received a 1969 Clemente today. However, this is clearly not the well centered card described and shown, PSA #17980933. Needless to say this is very upsetting to me. I have no need or use for this particular card and would like it exchanged for the one listed. -Rich

5:10PM
Attached is a picture of the card you sent instead.... ( I have attached picture)

5:41PM
filed ebay return request

5:54PM
Hi again. So I'm looking at your listings for the card you sent me ( PSA #14491605) instead of the well centered card I was hoping to receive ( PSA #17980933) but turns out you don't have this card listed. I can't understand how this mix up could happen? It took me all of 15 seconds to see the mistake. I hope to hear from you soon.

6PM
This is your very detailed and informed description you gave and yet you send out this card instead and it wasn't noticeably different to you? An oversight on such a distinguished card? I expect that the card we agreed upon will eventually be on it's way after I send this one back to you....

this copy is clearly better centered than any copies I have seen on ebay in the recent past. The only thing I see that may have kept it from a 7.5-8.5 is a touch of softness on the bottom right corner. This card is likely one of the most stunning 7's you will ever see.

About 7Pm I sent him the following:
I will need to look further into this and get back with you by Thursday. What make say I do not have the listed card? (definitely should have proofed it)

7:04PM
The wrong card you sent me isn't listed. Meaning I not sure which card you got confused with since I don't see another. Point is you sent me a card totally diffetent than the one we agreed to. Now I should hold on to it until Thursday?

7:09PM
So as not to confuse anyone further. Basically all I want is to return this card you sent me and for you to send me the one in the picture of this listing. I need to wait until Thursday for this?

7:26
With all due respect I have to tell you that what's irking the most about this deal is that I passed up on a grade 7 similar to this one for less money because this one was more appealing due to the very things you described, CENTERING. I even went with the sales tax nonsense to get it and this is the result. Wait until Thursday. Smh


About 9 PM (after checking my "selling pile" and confirming for myself I had no other PSA 7 1969 Clemente's laying around)I sent:
Dear sir,

I am not a dealer. I am a collector. I collect Roberto Clemente cards. I owned 4 1969 O Pee Chee cards. A PSA 8, a BVG 8, a PSA 7 (the one I scanned and listed), and a PSA 5. I just went through my cards just in case I might have forgotten something. I still own all but the PSA 7. I have never owned the card you claim I sent. I will be reaching out to PSA tomorrow to further confirm some details before reaching out to ebay with the same information. I have been a seller on ebay since 1998. I also participate extensively on collectors bulletin boards where reputation is everything and I have a spotless one. We discuss extensively ebay users who scam and are "blackballed" by many ebay users accordingly. I encourage you to reconsider what you are trying to claim here before there is no turning back.

Howard

9:00
I am not a dealer either but do resent your allegations that I should reconsider my claim? I have no reason to lie about such a thing. I too have a spotless reputation and have no reason to lie about receiving the wrong card. You sent me this card and your remarks tell me plenty.

9:05
The card in the picture attached showing PSA #14491605 came from this envelope and this box from your location. ( He included a photo of the same card pictured on top of the box I sent him.)

9:13
How dare you say you never owned this card? This card came out of the envelope you sent. I've purchased many things on Ebay and sold many things as well and never a problem. Now you have the nerve to acuse me? Ok.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 69 Clemente scam.jpg (66.6 KB, 389 views)
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  #4  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:03 PM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
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Yeah, which cert number is he claiming you sent him? Seems to obvious for you to not have considered. I keep almost all cards I own on my inventory/set registry and then only release them once I've sold the card. That way I can track if other people try to add a card I still own and report them to PSA.
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  #5  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:21 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Yeah, which cert number is he claiming you sent him? Seems to obvious for you to not have considered. I keep almost all cards I own on my inventory/set registry and then only release them once I've sold the card. That way I can track if other people try to add a card I still own and report them to PSA.
He is claiming I sent him cert# 14491605 (according to PSA - no information available). I sent him cert# 17980933 (currently listed in my PSA inventory).
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  #6  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:28 PM
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pokerplyr80 pokerplyr80 is offline
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I would contact Ebay and plead your case, let them know you are being scammed. I've never dealt with this situation personally on either end, but have a feeling they may side with the buyer. But presenting your side before he files a claim may help.
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  #7  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:40 PM
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tribefan tribefan is offline
m!ke kn@z@v!c
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What is the eBay id, and his name? He may be a known scammer. Is there anything in his feedback that appears to be a false positive?
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  #8  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:40 PM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
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I'm trying to figure out how this makes sense from the buyer's perspective. It's not like a different PSA 7 could have been swapped out in the mail.
Option 1: If the buyer had Cert #144... beforehand and he wanted to "trade" it for your card, he'd be asking for a refund, not for you to send the card you actually were selling. Maybe this is a mid-game gambit that he'll negotiate back to you to return his #144 for a full refund.
Option 2: You made the mistake and accidentally sent him the wrong card. You have a collection of this specific card and you own multiples of them. Maybe you just forgot this one, and you mailed it accidentally. However, if this was the case, #179 is still in your possession somewhere.

Option 2 makes the most sense to me, just based on game theory and intuition.
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Last edited by swarmee; 10-16-2018 at 09:41 PM.
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  #9  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:48 PM
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Pat R Pat R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcv123 View Post
He is claiming I sent him cert# 14491605 (according to PSA - no information available). I sent him cert# 17980933 (currently listed in my PSA inventory).
This card was sold on ebay on 4/9/2010 and it looks like you purchased
it Howard.

Clemente.jpg

img734.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 10-16-2018 at 09:52 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:23 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
This card was sold on ebay on 4/9/2010 and it looks like you purchased
it Howard.

Attachment 331619

Attachment 331620
Whoa! Super confused now. Looks like might have been my mistake. Is that from VCP?
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  #11  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:34 PM
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Pat R Pat R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcv123 View Post
Whoa! Super confused now. Looks like might have been my mistake. Is that from VCP?
Yes it is from VCP Howard.
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  #12  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:46 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
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Default Thank you Pat and all who responded

I hate when my imperfect human side shows - especially so publicly. While the whereabouts of the listed card is still unknown, based on the fact that I did purchase the card in question in 2010 (Thanks again Pat), I'm going to presume this is my mistake and do what I can to make it right.

Man I love this board.
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  #13  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:54 PM
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Pat R Pat R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcv123 View Post
I hate when my imperfect human side shows - especially so publicly. While the whereabouts of the listed card is still unknown, based on the fact that I did purchase the card in question in 2010 (Thanks again Pat), I'm going to presume this is my mistake and do what I can to make it right.

Man I love this board.
We all make mistakes Howard good luck getting the situation straightened
out.

Just to make sure I didn't make a mistake I went back and double checked
to make sure it was the card you purchased and it was.

Here's the VCP listing with the scan of the card with that cert #.

1969 O-Pee-Chee Roberto Clemente PSA 7
eBay: 4/9/10 | Seller: theboymonk | Buyer: favorite_things | BIN
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  #14  
Old 10-17-2018, 05:57 AM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
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Thanks for the confirmation, Pat. That's the thing that made the most sense. Glad to see I wasn't running down the OP. Logically, the buyer doing something wrong or attempting to scam wasn't realistic in this situation.
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  #15  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:25 AM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
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Default Your post was helpful John

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Thanks for the confirmation, Pat. That's the thing that made the most sense. Glad to see I wasn't running down the OP. Logically, the buyer doing something wrong or attempting to scam wasn't realistic in this situation.
It helped me ask the more objective question - What would the buyer have as a motivation to do what I accused him of doing. I agreed with your conclusion that it didn't make a whole lot of sense for the buyer to be doing a switch - just not a whole lot of potential upside even though it meant I must be wrong. Still working on the mystery of what the heck happened to the card that I had listed.
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  #16  
Old 10-17-2018, 06:26 PM
Empty77 Empty77 is offline
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Default alternate possibility?

Hey Howard,

Not to regress things, but one possibility no one has mentioned is that you sold the lesser #144...sometime long before and hence forgot about it, whether to this buyer or someone entirely different, but that eventually made it to him and now a scam begins...
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  #17  
Old 10-17-2018, 08:37 PM
bxb bxb is offline
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Or maybe he sold the better card long ago but posted the wrong image on the latest sale.
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  #18  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:02 PM
mrmopar mrmopar is offline
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Even if you made a mistake, the guy still comes across as a bit of a psycho, spraying you with so many emails in a short period of time. Personally, I am only on eBay for a short time in the evenings, so if someone was messaging me every 15-30 minutes, I would not necessarily see any of them until the next day, depending on what they were sent.

Hope it works out.
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  #19  
Old 10-17-2018, 11:04 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
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Default I am clear on what I believe to be right

Thanks for the additional input guys. While I appreciate the additional possibilities you suggest and agree that the bombardment of emails was a bit much, I am going to stay with the most likely scenario. I have approved his return - he is sending it back - I will be looking a little deeper for the card in the listing and either send it to him if I find it or refund him if I don't and move on in either case. Thanks again to all.

Howard
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  #20  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:40 AM
Volod Volod is offline
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It probably does not apply here, but I had an experience in the past where I was selling a large number of cards, including different examples of the same card, and, through exhaustion or simple carelessness, began to insert one card into a mailer and caught the mistake before sending one example to the wrong buyer. And, of course, if the mistake had extended itself, might have sent the other example to the other buyer. But, if there is only one buyer for that particular card involved here, no point in wondering about a second buyer that might have got a much better card than anticipated.
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  #21  
Old 10-18-2018, 07:53 PM
Empty77 Empty77 is offline
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Default Yes...but

Quote:
Originally Posted by bxb View Post
Or maybe he sold the better card long ago but posted the wrong image on the latest sale.
Fair inverse; probably I was subconsciously assuming Howard wouldn't have sold off his good one and have kept a crappier one for himself!
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  #22  
Old 10-18-2018, 08:35 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
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Default I didn't

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty77 View Post
Fair inverse; probably I was subconsciously assuming Howard wouldn't have sold off his good one and have kept a crappier one for himself!
I have both a PSA 8 and an even nicer BVG 8!
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  #23  
Old 10-19-2018, 09:20 PM
Empty77 Empty77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcv123 View Post
I have both a PSA 8 and an even nicer BVG 8!
Sooo, might your nicer BVG 8 then be a PSA 9, or just 8.5??
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  #24  
Old 10-19-2018, 10:31 PM
Batpig Batpig is offline
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The 7 from the auction looks pretty dang nice. You didnít by any chance crack it and resub for the 8 you now own, did you?
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  #25  
Old 10-20-2018, 12:24 PM
Empty77 Empty77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batpig View Post
The 7 from the auction looks pretty dang nice. You didnít by any chance crack it and resub for the 8 you now own, did you?
Aha! The theory is further refined!
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  #26  
Old 10-20-2018, 06:44 PM
Marchillo Marchillo is offline
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Sell the holder not the card :/

I agree that maybe you cracked it out and resubbed it and itís sitting in another holder. Compare the images in your listing to the others in your collection.
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  #27  
Old 10-20-2018, 09:44 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
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Default I hate to use the word definitely anymore.......

but, HIGHLY unlikely I cracked and resubbed - I very rarely do that. I think one of the 2 possibilities mentioned here is likely - 1 - it is somewhere here waiting to be found or 2 - I accidentally shipped it as a different card somewhere in the past.
As far as the BVG 8 - the way PSA is grading these days I would offer an educated guess that it would come back between a PSA 1 and a PSA 9. So sick of the subjective inconsistency. Seems like they highest grade they give to mint bazooka boxes these days is a PSA 5!
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  #28  
Old 11-01-2018, 03:27 AM
Rose4HOF Rose4HOF is offline
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I had a PSA 8 on eBay and added a PSA 7 of the same card many months later. With so many cards posted, I forgot I had 2 on at the same time. Guy bought the PSA 7 and I shipped him the PSA 8 by accident. I didnt realize until somebody bought the PSA 8 and all I could find was the PSA 7. I try not to make mistakes often but when I do, they get cleaned up quick. I emailed the buyer and explained what happened, refunded his payment and sent him the tracking number for the free PSA 7. It was a costly hit but shit happens and I solved it instantly and put it behind me.
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