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  #1  
Old 06-27-2017, 12:10 PM
flkersn flkersn is offline
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Default For 52 T Gray geeks only

For 1952 Topps gray backs, I have been wondering how rare the "white front" cards are relative to the "gray front". I have always heard "about 10%". I thought I would explore the proposition.

For over 12 years I have been cataloguing 1952 Topps gray backs by PSA or SGC flip number, thereby creating a database of unique identifiers. I have created the database from E-bay sales, AH sales, VCP website, registry sets with photos, etc.

A few weeks ago there were 1054 graded Topps and 122 graded SGC cards, total of 1176 graded 1952 T gray backs. I have uniquely identified 730, or 62 percent. (There is surely some error as cards are broken out and re-submitted, etc., but I am hoping that in general the numbers apply.)

The result: 82 "white front" and 648 "gray front". 11%, or 1 in 9 are white. (I also realize that determining color from scans is often an art and not a science, but I am fairly confident in the results.) This clearly assumes that the raw cards out there are in the same proportion. I have obviously seen many raw scans, but there is no way to consistently uniquely identify them to prevent double-counting.

So, "about 10%" seems a great rule-of-thumb.

BTW, the are 14 cards for which I have never identified a white front version:
Widmar, Howell, Hartung, Haynes, Klippstein, Post, Smalley, Marshall, Edwards, Smith, Maxwell, Masterson, Miller, and OF COURSE, Reiser.

I will continue research, but I figured at my age I better make public what I have or it may be lost forever. Hopefully the sample size justifies the conclusions. Not sure if anyone is interested in this post, but if so, I welcome comments. And I certainly welcome scans of any privately held cards that would expand the data base.

Bill
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  #2  
Old 06-27-2017, 12:16 PM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is offline
Al Richter
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Bill-- I appreciate the info . Good of you to share it. I think you may have done it elsewhere but would appreciate a scan of both front versions of one of the gray backs side by side if you can do that
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  #3  
Old 06-27-2017, 02:51 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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Bill,

Are you saying the mid-series "white front" gray back cards are the same as the mid-series gray back glossies? I know the mid-series glossies have been referenced several times on N54 - but no one to date (except maybe Scott and or Ted S) has much experience with these. And no one that I am aware of has ever figured out how common these are in relation to the normal mid-series gray backs. If this is the case, congrats (!) & great information.

I have perhaps 23 mid-series gray backs, but don't think I have any glossies. Unsure if they have white fronts. I am travelling currently and will have to check when I return.

Z
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  #4  
Old 06-27-2017, 05:13 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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One of the first references I have found pertaining to the mid-series "white front" & gray back glossies came from SCD in their discussion with John Rumierz on refuting their Canadian origin. John was collecting '52 Topps back in the '70's & noted the difference between normal gray backs & the ones with glossy fronts.

The link follows - see item #6, half way down:

http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/topps_canadian/

Z
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  #5  
Old 06-27-2017, 06:05 PM
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irv irv is offline
D@le Irv*n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flkersn View Post
For 1952 Topps gray backs, I have been wondering how rare the "white front" cards are relative to the "gray front". I have always heard "about 10%". I thought I would explore the proposition.

For over 12 years I have been cataloguing 1952 Topps gray backs by PSA or SGC flip number, thereby creating a database of unique identifiers. I have created the database from E-bay sales, AH sales, VCP website, registry sets with photos, etc.

A few weeks ago there were 1054 graded Topps and 122 graded SGC cards, total of 1176 graded 1952 T gray backs. I have uniquely identified 730, or 62 percent. (There is surely some error as cards are broken out and re-submitted, etc., but I am hoping that in general the numbers apply.)

The result: 82 "white front" and 648 "gray front". 11%, or 1 in 9 are white. (I also realize that determining color from scans is often an art and not a science, but I am fairly confident in the results.) This clearly assumes that the raw cards out there are in the same proportion. I have obviously seen many raw scans, but there is no way to consistently uniquely identify them to prevent double-counting.

So, "about 10%" seems a great rule-of-thumb.

BTW, the are 14 cards for which I have never identified a white front version:
Widmar, Howell, Hartung, Haynes, Klippstein, Post, Smalley, Marshall, Edwards, Smith, Maxwell, Masterson, Miller, and OF COURSE, Reiser.

I will continue research, but I figured at my age I better make public what I have or it may be lost forever. Hopefully the sample size justifies the conclusions. Not sure if anyone is interested in this post, but if so, I welcome comments. And I certainly welcome scans of any privately held cards that would expand the data base.

Bill
Although I don't currently own any Grey backs, and likely never will, I sure do appreciate you posting this info up as I find it very interesting in my quest to someday complete my 52 Topps set.

Thank you!
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  #6  
Old 06-27-2017, 06:27 PM
flkersn flkersn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
Bill-- I appreciate the info . Good of you to share it. I think you may have done it elsewhere but would appreciate a scan of both front versions of one of the gray backs side by side if you can do that
Al,

I do not have immediate access to my cards. But perhaps others on this site can give you a scan comparison. Also, if you go to the PSA registry 1952 Topps Super Set, you will see some photos of both variations. For example, Morrison's set.

Bill
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  #7  
Old 06-27-2017, 06:35 PM
flkersn flkersn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Bill,

Are you saying the mid-series "white front" gray back cards are the same as the mid-series gray back glossies? I know the mid-series glossies have been referenced several times on N54 - but no one to date (except maybe Scott and or Ted S) has much experience with these. And no one that I am aware of has ever figured out how common these are in relation to the normal mid-series gray backs. If this is the case, congrats (!) & great information.

I have perhaps 23 mid-series gray backs, but don't think I have any glossies. Unsure if they have white fronts. I am travelling currently and will have to check when I return.

Z
They are probably the same. The glossies have a bit of a "sheen" to them. Here are my observations from cards that I have actually held in my hand:

All "glossies" are white front.
Not all white front are glossies.
No gray front is glossy.

I don't know if there are two variations of the white front or not. (Lordy, I hope not!) The non-glossy white front could be non-glossy because of wear.

Keep in mind that the cards I am talking about here are ones that I have seen 'live"--a much smaller subset than my original data base. It is impossible for me to tell glossiness in a scan.

Bill
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  #8  
Old 06-28-2017, 04:54 PM
SMPEP SMPEP is offline
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Bill - Pretty sure the white, non-glossies are really white, glossies that have aged.

Two gray back variations, not 3!

Cheers,
Patrick
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Looking for 1923 W572s, especially Barbare, Duncan, Heilmann, Parkinson, Rapp, Rigney and Wambsganss.

Let me know what you have!
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  #9  
Old 06-29-2017, 12:20 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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Al,

Here are 2...the #144 Blake is a glossy white front / gray back and #145 is the normal gray front / gray back. Differences are subtle and color differences could be an artifact of scanning. These were taken from the 1952 Topps Super Set for Harrison in the PSA Registry section. Thanks Bill for pointing this out.


Z
Attached Images
File Type: jpg #144 White.JPG (43.1 KB, 194 views)
File Type: jpg #145 Gray Reg.JPG (40.4 KB, 195 views)
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  #10  
Old 06-29-2017, 12:51 PM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is offline
Al Richter
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They do look different, thanks Zach
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