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  #21  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:08 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
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Originally Posted by DeanH3 View Post
Unless you had that incontrovertible evidence, naming names would only get you into an argument. Those who are named would obviously deny the accusation and we'd go round and round. Jeff L. warned us of Mastro and he denied everything until he got busted by the Feds. Might make for an epic net54 thread though.

Not to hi-jack your thread as this might be a little off target, but pertains to card doctoring. I've wondered about the time line of progression of the sophistication of alterations. What kind of alterations were being done 20, 15, 10 years ago vs 5 years up to current techniques? Where alterations much "simpler" so to speaker 15 years ago which made them "easier" to detect? Could that mean earlier graded cards actually being less likely to have some kind of alteration due to the types of alterations being done at that time easier to detect? Could be a totally naive thought, but a thought popped into my head.
Dean others would know the answer better than I do. I suspect that since we're only talking about cardboard, this isn't an evolving science to any significant extent. The famous VCBC 7 article from 1996 quotes Dan Desmond as saying good alteration is undetectable, and even if that is not the case, I suspect part of the problem is that for your 8 or 15 or 25 dollar fee you aren't buying a crime lab, you are buying a quick look. I think the TPGs are very good for the most part at what they do, but with a number of motivated and capable card doctors, and not much time or technology to review, and human error, you are going to get your fair share of altered cards that get through the process, even if you don't buy a more nefarious theory of TPG.

PS One reason the very early grades might be more reliable even if more lax numerically is that there were so many more raw cards to send in for the first time. So many submissions now are stuff being recycled. But again I don't really know.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-17-2018 at 03:15 PM.
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  #22  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:12 PM
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1. Any foreign substance removed from any card is an improvement and need not be mentioned to a buyer.

I don't consider this restoration, such as removing glue residue on the back, but it should at least be pointed out to the buyer. Most buyers IMO are OK with this.

2. Anything added to (like color) a card is fraudulent. Or building up corners. Horrors!

Agreed. How the hell do they rebuild corners? That is FREAKY!

3. Nobody should trim cards. It's not the same card.

Agreed.

4) If ironing out creases is successful, fine.

Hell no! Sometimes these creases or wrinkles can reappear many months or years down the line (when the card is sitting inside a PSA 8 case!)
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  #23  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:14 PM
Throttlesteer Throttlesteer is offline
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You're handcuffed in a way. The internet has brought accessibility to cards you probably wouldn't be able to find otherwise. The ability to identify alterations, prior to purchase, is impossible without having the card in hand. It doesn't matter if it's encapsulated or raw; Your chances of getting duped certainly go up if you buy raw from an unknown source. But, some of the more respected names still make mistakes. They turn an awful lot of cards in a short period time and, like many, also trust the grade without further examination. Does it make sense for sellers to break out the eye loupe for every graded card they sell? I don't like the doctoring any more than anyone else. But, it's hard to make a case against someone without firsthand proof, as Leon pointed out. It would be irresponsible to "out" someone and ruin a good reputation, simply because a single card graded by a respected grader ended up being altered. Just my two centavos.
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  #24  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
1. Any foreign substance removed from any card is an improvement and need not be mentioned to a buyer.

I don't consider this restoration, such as removing glue residue on the back, but it should at least be pointed out to the buyer. Most buyers IMO are OK with this.

2. Anything added to (like color) a card is fraudulent. Or building up corners. Horrors!

Agreed. How the hell do they rebuild corners? That is FREAKY!

3. Nobody should trim cards. It's not the same card.

Agreed.

4) If ironing out creases is successful, fine.

Hell no! Sometimes these creases or wrinkles can reappear many months or years down the line (when the card is sitting inside a PSA 8 case!)
Yeah re 4 I've seen that happen at least twice, either that or PSA somehow missed the very obvious wrinkle the first time which is highly unlikely.
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  #25  
Old 01-18-2018, 12:31 PM
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[

2. Anything added to (like color) a card is fraudulent. Or building up corners. Horrors!
Restored corners and major restoration like that is easy to identify. I wouldn't worry about that stuff sneaking forever undetectable into the hobby.
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  #26  
Old 01-18-2018, 12:45 PM
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Perhaps we should discuss the impact of card nursing on the hobby as well.
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  #27  
Old 01-18-2018, 12:54 PM
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If restoration is no big deal then it should be no big deal to disclose it either.
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  #28  
Old 01-18-2018, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by packs View Post
If restoration is no big deal then it should be no big deal to disclose it either.
Correct. When people say a type of restoration is no big deal, then they should have no problem disclosing it. That they don't want to disclose it at sale says the do think it is a 'deal' that affects resale value.

Another thing is that there are standard advanced scientific tests that are used elsewhere, but not with trading cards. That doesn't mean that ten or twenty years down the road, someone won't do the tests on today's cards to identify which have been altered.

I don't consider this whole discussion a big issue for collectors of mid to low grade cards-- which I assume is most people on this board. However, I think many collectors of highest grade graded cards are rubes.

There's another area (not cards) that I bet will be a matter of rude awakening for collectors in the future, but that's a topic for another discussion.

Last edited by drcy; 01-18-2018 at 01:19 PM.
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  #29  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:01 PM
Marchillo Marchillo is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drcy View Post
Correct. When people say a type of restoration is no big deal, then they should have no problem disclosing it. That they don't want to disclose it at sale says the do think it is a 'deal' that affects resale value.

Another thing is that there are standard advanced scientific tests that are used elsewhere, but not with trading cards. That doesn't mean that ten or twenty years down the road, someone won't do the tests on today's cards to identify which have been altered.

I don't consider this whole discussion a big issue for collectors of mid to low grade cards-- which I assume is most people on this board. However, I think many collectors of highest grade graded cards are rubes.

There's another area (not cards) that I bet will be a matter of rude awakening for collectors in the future, but that's a topic for another discussion.




Can someone smarter than me tell me where the color has been added just by the eBay photos? The first card is mine and the second is a graded version currently for sale. I didn't pay a ton for mine so I'm not that upset. To be fair when I received the card I didn't examine it for color being added.

I'm still trying to figure out how to find these types of issues. If it really difficult when buying online.

Not trying to hijack the thread but figured this was relevant. I'd be happy to delete at the OP's request.

Thanks - Steve



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  #30  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
Perhaps we should discuss the impact of card nursing on the hobby as well.
I suspect you would have made a better nurse than doctor yourself.
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