NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 11-18-2018, 11:58 AM
gopherfan gopherfan is offline
Rob Anderson
member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glynparson View Post
If you flip his career he probably gets in as it is it will be borderline in my opinion. Id vote for him but i am easy.
If you flip his career, all you get is the same arguments but the added PED questions. It has never been questioned f Joe took PED's, but if you flip the career, they would be everywhere.

I am a huge Mauer fan, and I would love to see him in the HOF. I think he is borderline. If he doesn't suffer from the concussions and stays at catcher, he is first ballot. As it stands, I am not sure. Think of what could have been if he had stayed injury free.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-20-2018, 01:57 AM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
His third batting title came in 2008, when he hit .328. He won that batting title by sheer luck with such a low average.
I'm sorry, but this statement is really ignorant. Hey, Carl Yastrzemski won the batting title in 1968 hitting .301 a year after he won the Triple Crown. Just luck, right?

Forget the fact that he was the only man in the entire American League to hit .300. The second place finisher, Danny Carter, hit .290.

Maybe Mauer's .328 AVG was a bit low because the pitching in the AL that year was that good?

Christian Yelich won the batting title this year hitting .326. He was lucky, too, right? Nevermind he was two home runs, and 1 RBI shy of the first Triple Crown in the National League in over 80 years!

Context is needed in evaluating statistics. Clearly you don't get it.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-20-2018, 08:19 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,207
Default

I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

Last edited by packs; 11-20-2018 at 08:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-20-2018, 09:28 AM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is offline
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 2,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?
Posada finished fourth that year in BA, so Ordonez was not his only "bad luck". Ordonez is also a lifetime .300 hitter, making his 2007 season not so inexplicable. What is far more inexplicable is Posada's .338 average--the only season he topped even .290 and 65 points higher than his lifetime BA. Had anyone else finished second to him that year, they would have a far better argument for bad luck. In contrast, Mauer hitting anywhere over .300 is pretty "explicable".
__________________
No sooner had I hit the streets
When I met the fools that a young fool meets
All in search of truth and bound for glory
And listening to our own heartbeats
We stood around the drum
Though it's fainter now, the older I've become
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-20-2018, 10:50 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolemmings View Post
Posada finished fourth that year in BA, so Ordonez was not his only "bad luck". Ordonez is also a lifetime .300 hitter, making his 2007 season not so inexplicable. What is far more inexplicable is Posada's .338 average--the only season he topped even .290 and 65 points higher than his lifetime BA. Had anyone else finished second to him that year, they would have a far better argument for bad luck. In contrast, Mauer hitting anywhere over .300 is pretty "explicable".
Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?

Last edited by packs; 11-20-2018 at 10:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-20-2018, 12:53 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is offline
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 2,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?
The question is pointless, because he was nowhere near the batting title. He finished fourth. Shave another twenty points off of Mags' BA and he still finished ahead of Posada's one-year wonder. And did I mention, that would still leave Posada fourth, and more than ten points behind #2 Ichiro.

So to flip the question, if Mauer leapfrogs over not three players (like Posada) but one in 2013 and two in 2010, then he has five batting titles. Would that be enough for you to consider him a HOFer?

Despite what my posts might suggest, I do not like even somewhat dissing Jorge Posada, who was one of my favorite players for the greatest sports franchise in the USA. But he isn't even the best Yankee catcher not in the HOF-- that would be the Captain--and an argument can be made that he was no better than Ellie Howard either, who won an MVP and who could play the position. Without even crunching other catcher careers, it is easy to say Posada was not as good as Ted Simmons, and really was not better than Lance Parrish. So no, he is not a HOFer.
__________________
No sooner had I hit the streets
When I met the fools that a young fool meets
All in search of truth and bound for glory
And listening to our own heartbeats
We stood around the drum
Though it's fainter now, the older I've become

Last edited by nolemmings; 11-20-2018 at 12:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-20-2018, 01:19 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,207
Default

I guess the issue here is that I don't see so much separation between the HOF cases for Mauer and Posada. They were both able to do unique things with their bats at the position. So, if you think Mauer winning batting titles makes him a HOF catcher, I'd also call the best offensive catcher of his era (Posada) a HOFer too. The only catchers with bats to match were Pudge and Piazza, both known cheaters.

I only brought up 2007 because Posada put up a high average as a catcher and didn't win. But even if he did I don't think that makes him more of a HOFer than he already was. Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

Last edited by packs; 11-20-2018 at 01:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-20-2018, 02:38 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is offline
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 2,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.
Huh? Look at Lance Parrish's numbers, as but one example. A few more RBI than Posada and nearly 50 more HR, playing fewer seasons. More recently, Brian McCann's numbers are going to end up around the same as Posada. The words "no one hit like Posada" are pretty laughable.

Jorge finished with top-ten numbers in OB% OPS+, Doubles and BB. He had 4 seasons among the leaders in OB%, never higher than third. Mauer had 7 such seasons, twice leading the league. Posada had a 6th and 10th place finish in OPS+. Mauer had 4 top-ten finishes, including first place. Jorge finished in the top-ten in walks three times--same as Mauer. So even these more non-traditional categories--the only ones where Posada's name appears, do not show him to be all that remarkable.
__________________
No sooner had I hit the streets
When I met the fools that a young fool meets
All in search of truth and bound for glory
And listening to our own heartbeats
We stood around the drum
Though it's fainter now, the older I've become
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-20-2018, 03:22 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,207
Default

Is it laughable? Parish's career overlapped with Posada's for exactly 1 game. McCann's career began while Posada was 33 years old. I don't see what either has to do with Posada's reign as the best hitting catcher in his league (minus a cheating Pudge). There aren't too many players who were the premiere offensive player at their position for a decade that aren't in the HOF. Posada fits that bill. Between 1998 and 2007, who was better?

Last edited by packs; 11-20-2018 at 03:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:42 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is offline
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 2,622
Default

Oh, I misunderstood your position. You're using what I call the Bill Freehan argument; i.e., I was the best catcher during the ten years I pick out and at a time when the league was either down at my position or there were a few guys with good years but nothing as consistent as me, never mind that my seasonal or "era" numbers never approach anything noteworthy. You added a twist, claiming he's not even the best unless you throw out cheaters. Got it.

But are you saying that Mauer doing what no AL catcher ever did, thrice, is essentially no better than how Posada was the most consistent hitter at his position over a specific ten-year period (leaving aside one other cheater and the fact that the last three years of that span both Mauer and VMart were better hitters and that even Jason Varitek put up similar numbers as Jorge over another three year or so stretch). I don't think so. But hey, you've inspired me to take another look at my Bill Freehan cards, who BTW, was also a better catcher than Posada.
__________________
No sooner had I hit the streets
When I met the fools that a young fool meets
All in search of truth and bound for glory
And listening to our own heartbeats
We stood around the drum
Though it's fainter now, the older I've become
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
5 Year Hall of Famers? Make your case frankbmd Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 73 11-01-2018 05:24 AM
OT: Manning announces his retirement T205 GB Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 35 03-09-2016 06:45 AM
O/T Barry Bonds announces retirement Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 48 02-22-2006 06:47 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 AM.


ebay GSB