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  #11  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:51 AM
Yastrzemski Sports Yastrzemski Sports is offline
Adam Yastrzemski
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Mussina should definitely be in before Smoltz and maybe Glavine. If Mussina had taken a job in the NL you could lower his era a half point and he would have had 300 wins. Itís hard to believe the voters havenít taken that into account. My guess would be that he gets in either 2020 or 21.
Edgar does appear to be closing in. To me, Edgar doesnít belong at all. If he played a position he wouldnít even be in the conversation. Players career stats most comparable to him are Will Clark, Magglio Ordonez and Moises Alou. He had 2200 hits and 300 hr with no other real accolades. If you have a ballot I donít know how you vote for Edgar before Fred McGriff, Jeff Kent and Larry Walker.
I expect Mariano and Halladay will sail in and they should.
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  #12  
Old 01-14-2019, 07:38 AM
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rats60 rats60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
Mussina should definitely be in before Smoltz and maybe Glavine. If Mussina had taken a job in the NL you could lower his era a half point and he would have had 300 wins. Itís hard to believe the voters havenít taken that into account. My guess would be that he gets in either 2020 or 21.
Edgar does appear to be closing in. To me, Edgar doesnít belong at all. If he played a position he wouldnít even be in the conversation. Players career stats most comparable to him are Will Clark, Magglio Ordonez and Moises Alou. He had 2200 hits and 300 hr with no other real accolades. If you have a ballot I donít know how you vote for Edgar before Fred McGriff, Jeff Kent and Larry Walker.
I expect Mariano and Halladay will sail in and they should.
Disagree. Glavine won 2 Cy Youngs was 2nd twice and 3rd twice. Smoltz also won a Cy Young and then went to the bullpen to help the Braves as a closer and won Fireman of the Year. Because of them the Braves won their division every year from 1991-2002 (2005 for Smoltz).

Mussina finished in the top 3 of Cy Young voting once. If Mussina gets elected, only Jack Morris and Red Ruffing will have higher ERAs. The lower ERA is ridiculous. The league difference is about .25 before ignoring that the pitching was much better in the NL. Who was Mussina competing with? Clemens 91-03 and Pedro 98-04. Still he couldn't win a Cy Young, never led in ERA or WHIP. Also, his win total would have been lower in the NL. In the AL, he never got pulled for a pinch hitter.
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:30 AM
Yastrzemski Sports Yastrzemski Sports is offline
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Disagree. Glavine won 2 Cy Youngs was 2nd twice and 3rd twice. Smoltz also won a Cy Young and then went to the bullpen to help the Braves as a closer and won Fireman of the Year. Because of them the Braves won their division every year from 1991-2002 (2005 for Smoltz).

Mussina finished in the top 3 of Cy Young voting once. If Mussina gets elected, only Jack Morris and Red Ruffing will have higher ERAs. The lower ERA is ridiculous. The league difference is about .25 before ignoring that the pitching was much better in the NL. Who was Mussina competing with? Clemens 91-03 and Pedro 98-04. Still he couldn't win a Cy Young, never led in ERA or WHIP. Also, his win total would have been lower in the NL. In the AL, he never got pulled for a pinch hitter.
Let me throw some numbers out there.
Mussina 270-153 .638%. 2813 k, 3.68 era, 123 era+.
Glavine 305-203 .600%. 2607 k, 3.54 era, 118 era+.
Smoltz 213-155 .579%. 3084 k, 3.33 era, 125 era+. And 154 saves.

Era+ shows a truer measure of how the player performs in relation to their league. Yes, the Braves have a ws the cy. Mussina has 7 gold gloves - not as important but a nice plus. But you canít convince me of any reason why the Braves would go in first ballot and Mussinas first year he got 20% and had to climb over 6 years to get close. I would argue that heís way more deserving than Smoltz - who had good years as a starter and reliever but didnít do enough as either to get in. And Mussina, in some ways, is better than Glavine. Glavine has the magic 300 number and the 2 cy but over the course of their career Mussina is right there.
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  #14  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:23 PM
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rats60 rats60 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
Let me throw some numbers out there.
Mussina 270-153 .638%. 2813 k, 3.68 era, 123 era+.
Glavine 305-203 .600%. 2607 k, 3.54 era, 118 era+.
Smoltz 213-155 .579%. 3084 k, 3.33 era, 125 era+. And 154 saves.

Era+ shows a truer measure of how the player performs in relation to their league. Yes, the Braves have a ws the cy. Mussina has 7 gold gloves - not as important but a nice plus. But you canít convince me of any reason why the Braves would go in first ballot and Mussinas first year he got 20% and had to climb over 6 years to get close. I would argue that heís way more deserving than Smoltz - who had good years as a starter and reliever but didnít do enough as either to get in. And Mussina, in some ways, is better than Glavine. Glavine has the magic 300 number and the 2 cy but over the course of their career Mussina is right there.
We will just have to disagree. ERA+ is heavily biased when there is a talent discrepancy between leagues like there was in Mussina's career. Changing careers wouldn't have effected his career ERA, which is bad by HOF standards, like you claim. He was never one of the top pitchers in his league despite a void of talent (only 1 top 3 Cy Young finish). He was an accumulator and that is the only reason his is getting HOF support.

Tom Glavine on the other hand was one of the best pitchers in baseball for a decade, 2 Cy Youngs, 6 top 3 finishes, led NL in wins 5 times and 9 division titles with the 10th year being the strike. He also hit the magic 300 win mark. He is a no brainer as a 1st ballot HOFer.

Smoltz is a little bit behind Glavine as he only had the 1 Cy Young season as a starter. His case is more a combination of that along with 3 seasons as an elite closer (144 saves and FotY) and a 15-4 postseason record. That is #2 in wins all time. For starters with 100+ innings only Curt Schilling had a better win percentage and Smoltz pitched 209 postseason innings. I wouldn't have put him in on the 1st ballot, but he is definitely ahead of Mussina. He is basically Mussina with 3+ years as an elite closer plus one of the greatest post season pitchers of all time.
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  #15  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:18 PM
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Snapolit1 Snapolit1 is offline
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Mussina deserves to be in the Hall (of the Very Good). Right next to Baines.
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  #16  
Old 01-15-2019, 01:58 PM
Promethius88 Promethius88 is offline
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Dave Concepcion deserves to be in the Hall. Assuming you believe that Ozzie Smith deserves to be there.
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  #17  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:56 PM
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Dave Concepcion deserves to be in the Hall. Assuming you believe that Ozzie Smith deserves to be there.
Tim- make your case for your statement...or is it just an opinion?



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