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  #1  
Old 11-20-2016, 08:21 AM
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Default E90-1s have plate scratches too!

With advance apologies to those who think that T206s are the only set worth discussing, I present a surprising new (at least to me) discovery. I picked up this Demmit on ebay a couple weeks ago. I saw the plate scratch on an E90-1 for the first time. Strange, as I've been collecting the set for more than 30 years.



I immediately thought of the remakable work done by Pat, Steve and others on the T206 sheets and wondered if scratches could help unravel the mysteries of the E90-1 distribution. For decades, E90-1 has been thought of as a three series issue; the first in late 1908 to early 1909, the second as 1910 and a third in 1911. This is clearly inadequate to explain the varying levels of difficulty among the cards. I have postulated at least eight separate "printings" with additions, deletions and replacements along the way.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. Back to the scratches. I checked my set and dupes (125 cards in total), hoping to find a few more. And I did.

Much to my amazement, the Demmit I already had, had a different scratch.



This is causing me to rethink some of the theories I've been developing. Demmit was either double printed on one sheet or printed on two separate sheets. I also found four others, three of which fit the pattern of scarcity I was expecting:
Gray


Joss (throwing)


And Tenney



These three are less common than most (as is Demmit) and I was not surprised that they could be sheetmates.

I was very surprised at the last subject, Bailey


Bailey is among the most common E90-1s, surely in the top five. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean that all of these subjects were printed on the same sheet. There could have been multiple sheets with scratches.

Enough for now. I need two things from the board: 1) everyone drop what you're doing and inspect your E90-1s and report any additions you find; and 2) someone with the time and photoshop skills to replicate Pat's extraordinary t206 analysis and apply it to this wonderful set. Regretably, I have neither.

Looking forward to everyone's comments and suggestions.
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2016, 09:25 AM
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Cool research on a great caramel set. I wish I could help, Ed, but I am down to only one E90-1. I do believe I have seen multiple examples over the years with those types of scratches. Thanks for sharing....
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  #3  
Old 11-20-2016, 09:53 AM
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I just checked my 15 E90-1s, and two of them have plate scratches:

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Last edited by Bliggity; 11-20-2016 at 10:04 AM.
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  #4  
Old 11-20-2016, 10:37 AM
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Default Two more

Found two from images of previously owned cards:

* Miller (fldg) - through the bats downwards to right ... also, lower right corner??
* Overall - through "American Caramel Co" downwards to right

For the record - that was 2 with scratches out of 23 cards
 
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File Type: jpg 9333.jpg (74.4 KB, 516 views)
File Type: jpg 11093.jpg (74.6 KB, 510 views)
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Last edited by frohme; 11-20-2016 at 10:39 AM. Reason: Add stats
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  #5  
Old 11-20-2016, 10:46 AM
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That's great Ed. I'm sure no one would be surprised that I'm interested in
this. If you or someone else would like to do some work on this I would
be happy to help.

What I found works best is to make up some sheets like this... ( I made this
in a couple of minutes but it takes more time to make an accurate one)
img899.jpg

Then draw the scratch in like I did with the first Demmitt you posted.
img898.jpg

You can do this with several scratches and as you find new ones you can see if they fit any
of the spots on either side of an existing scratch. The main reason I find this
works best is all the cards are cut different but this will give an accurate placement of where the scratches should be.

The second Demmitt you posted has two vertical scratches so it will probably
be a good one to start with. I just did a quick check and found this Jennings
with two vertical scratches going in the opposite direction of your Demmitt.
E90-1 Jennings.jpg
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  #6  
Old 11-20-2016, 10:56 AM
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You already have an opposite sheet mate match.

Mikes Overall is a match to your Demmitt so there's probably an Overall
that matches the Demmitt you posted with the two vertical scratches.
E90-1 Demmitt.jpg
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2016, 11:01 AM
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Great thread Ed! I have nothing to add but I'll be following along.
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2016, 11:27 AM
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Great work, Ed! I love research on E90-1, it's one of my favorite sets. Glad to see Pat jumping in, too, really nice work on the T206 scratches. Not many scratches among my cards, but I can add four. The Joss looks like the origin of the scratches, that one is branching out all over.







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  #9  
Old 11-20-2016, 12:15 PM
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It's way to early to tell but it looks like Troy's Stone and McInnes line up
and possibly Mike's Miller.
img900.jpg

The miller has two scratches that would create one next to it similar to this.
img901.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 11-20-2016 at 12:16 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2016, 02:14 PM
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there almost looks like one on the left quadrant of this one...unless it's a crease.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...8AAOSw9IpX1Jsl
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  #11  
Old 11-20-2016, 07:23 PM
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It looks like the double scratch on Demmitt lines up with both scratches on
this Joss.
Demmittper20-per20Copy.jpg
Demmitt.jpg
Joss.jpg
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  #12  
Old 11-20-2016, 10:06 PM
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Default Wallace with a scratch...

Here's my Wallace with a plate scratch..
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File Type: jpg wallace320.jpg (73.1 KB, 323 views)
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  #13  
Old 11-20-2016, 11:33 PM
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Default That's Mr. E90ThomasScratch to you

E90 Scratch fever for all you Doubting Thomas's.

Brian

As an aside...always loved the colors and action pose on the Thomas, but the face is to die for, or more accurately, to die because of.
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File Type: jpg e90thomasscratch240.jpg (75.3 KB, 320 views)
File Type: jpg e90thomasscratch241.jpg (67.2 KB, 320 views)
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  #14  
Old 11-21-2016, 08:39 AM
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Default Lumley And Matty Matching Scratch

Lumley.jpgMathewson 1.jpg
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  #15  
Old 11-21-2016, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: E90-1s have plate scratches too!

Wow! Great replies so far! Thanks to everyone who took the time to search their cards. Special thanks again to Pat for the layout. I wouldn't have known how to do that. I think that the sheet may be too large, though. I have guessed at 30 card sheets (5X6), like some of the other small caramel sets. Obviously it's only that-a guess. Some interesting matches and neighbors already. I will have to revisit my theories on the distribution of the set. Please keep 'em coming. My computer time will be limited for the next week or so, but I will follow the thread and post when I'm able. Thanks again!
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  #16  
Old 11-21-2016, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edhans View Post
Wow! Great replies so far! Thanks to everyone who took the time to search their cards. Special thanks again to Pat for the layout. I wouldn't have known how to do that. I think that the sheet may be too large, though. I have guessed at 30 card sheets (5X6), like some of the other small caramel sets. Obviously it's only that-a guess. Some interesting matches and neighbors already. I will have to revisit my theories on the distribution of the set. Please keep 'em coming. My computer time will be limited for the next week or so, but I will follow the thread and post when I'm able. Thanks again!
Ed, I think it might be doable, there seem to be a much larger percent of
scratches compared to the PD150's and they are much easier to spot. I've
found over thirty in a short period of time searching. The biggest obstacle
will be trying to break down which players were together on the sheets.
I'm not familiar that with the E90-1's are there any front miscuts?

Here's a couple more pairs.

Bresnahan/Clement
Bresnahan-Matches Clement.jpgClement.jpg

Grant/Hartzell
Grant Matches Hartsel.jpgHartsell.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 11-22-2016 at 05:15 PM.
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  #17  
Old 11-21-2016, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
I'm not familiar that with the E90-1's are there any front miscuts?
Here is a front miscut of Thomas catching along with his sheetmate McInnes:

Brian
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  #18  
Old 11-21-2016, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianp-beme View Post
Here is a front miscut of Thomas catching along with his sheetmate McInnes:

Brian
Thanks Brian.

Well that's strange. The scratches line up but McInnes should be on the
right for the back.
Mcginnes.jpgThomas.jpg
Mcginnes%20Back.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 11-21-2016 at 04:01 PM.
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  #19  
Old 11-21-2016, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: E90-1s have plate scratches too!

It's two different Thomases, Pat. Roy of Boston is the one with the scratch. Ira is the neighbor to McInnes in Brian's post. I find it interesting because It's unlikely that Roy Thomas and McInnes could be sheet mates. I'm betting we find another subject with a matching scratch to Roy Thomas.
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  #20  
Old 11-21-2016, 03:23 PM
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Thanks Ed, what a dope I am. I didn't even pay attention to the fronts
and I didn't know there are two different Thomases. There is another
scratch that matches Roy Thomas it's Crawford.
Crawford.jpg
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  #21  
Old 11-21-2016, 04:06 PM
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OK I found the right Thomas and it has the same mark on the lower left front as Brian's miscut Thomas.
Thomas, Ira.jpg
Thomas - McInnes.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 11-21-2016 at 04:10 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-21-2016, 07:54 PM
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Not my card.

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  #23  
Old 11-21-2016, 08:54 PM
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That's Great Dan, Thanks.
Stone (No HJands) 1.jpg
Stone (No HJands) 1 - Copy.jpg
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  #24  
Old 11-22-2016, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: E90-1s have plate scratches too!

Great stuff, all. So now we have three neighbors (Ira Thomas, McInnes and Crawford) This is consistent with the scarcity pattern I've observed. The discovery of the double (at least) printed Stone (no arms) refutes my thoughts on the sheet layouts. I have been operating under the assumption that the sheets were formatted similar to the other small candy issues of the era; 25 or 30 card sheets with no duplication. The Stone clearly proves that false. It is, however, consistent with the relative difficulty of this subject, one of the very common ones. Thanks again to everyone. Keep 'em coming!
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  #25  
Old 11-22-2016, 12:27 PM
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Ed, I've found quite a few so far I can send to you in an email or post them
here if you want. I haven't done much work on connecting the scratches
but that's what should help determine how many times the same subject
was used in a row.

I found three different matty's so far but it's possible some subjects
were used on more than one sheet.
Mathewson 1 Matches Lumley.jpg
Mathewson 2.jpg
Mathewson 3.jpg

I got this Krause scan from your site. It looks like the scratch might branch
off in a couple of directions from the last L in ball if you can take a closer look.
Krause.jpg
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  #26  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:14 PM
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ED,
I am making a sheet that tracks all of the scratches and found that there's
a Hartzell (Batting) that matches a Grant.
Grant Matches Hartsel (Batting).jpgHartsell (Batting) 1.jpg

And there's also a different Hartzell (Batting) that matches a Gibson (Front View).
Gibson (Front View).jpgHartsell (Batting) 2 2.jpg
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: E90-1s have plate scratches too!

Pat,
By all means post it in this thread if you'd like. I can't think how I missed the scratch on the Krause. I think I still have that one. Do the second and third Mattys line up horizontally? I continue to be amazed at your remarkable work. Thanks again.
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  #28  
Old 11-22-2016, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edhans View Post
Pat,
By all means post it in this thread if you'd like. I can't think how I missed the scratch on the Krause. I think I still have that one. Do the second and third Mattys line up horizontally? I continue to be amazed at your remarkable work. Thanks again.
It's hard to tell because the scans are different but it's possible that they line up. When there are more scans collected and the sheets are worked on we
should have a better idea.
Mathewsonper202.jpg

Here's a few more matching pairs.

Collins/Donovan
Collins Matches Donavan.jpgDonovan.jpg

Gray/McInnes
Gray Matches McInnes.jpgMcInnes.jpg

Phelps/Stone (Left Hand)

Phelpsper20Matchesper20Stoneper20_Leftper20Hand_%20-%20Copy.jpgStone (Left Hand Visible).jpg
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  #29  
Old 11-22-2016, 07:25 PM
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Default Overall

Ed - great project.

Overall_0001.jpgOverall_0002.jpg
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  #30  
Old 11-22-2016, 07:51 PM
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Default A few more

Chase2.jpgChase2_0001.jpg

Tannahill.jpgTannahill_0001.jpg

Crawford.jpgCrawford_0001.jpg

Cobb.jpgCobb_0001.jpg
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  #31  
Old 11-23-2016, 08:47 AM
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Ed,
It looks like Jesse Tannehill might line up with Tenney,
but there is a strip of blue on Tannehill that eliminates
Tenney so it must be another player that matches
the Tenney scratch. Any ideas on players to check for this scratch?
Tenney-.jpg
Tannehil Front.jpgTannehill Crop.jpg
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  #32  
Old 11-24-2016, 08:12 AM
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One thing that's going to make it a little tougher is that there are two
scratches through a sheet(s) that are similar.

This Marquard is very close but just a little lower than the Tenney.
Tenney - Copy.jpgTenney - Copy (2).jpg
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:28 AM
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Default Re: E90-1s have plate scratches too!

Pat,
That blue mark on the Tannehill looks like a slightly misaligned color pass. Might be difficult to identify. I did find a Lumley that may correspond. I would consider the two potential sheet mates. Haven't had time to look any further. Hope to do so this weekend. Interesting observation on the Marquard/Tenney scratches. I'm sure I would have missed that one. Thanks again for all your efforts. Happy Thanksgiving.

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Old 11-24-2016, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edhans View Post
Pat,
That blue mark on the Tannehill looks like a slightly misaligned color pass. Might be difficult to identify. I did find a Lumley that may correspond. I would consider the two potential sheet mates. Haven't had time to look any further. Hope to do so this weekend. Interesting observation on the Marquard/Tenney scratches. I'm sure I would have missed that one. Thanks again for all your efforts. Happy Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too Ed.
I thought a Blue color shift from the grass on Oakes might be a possibility
Too. It's hard to try and line them up with different scans, they get distorted
when you try and resize them.
Tannehill%20-%20Copy - Copy - Copy.jpg

It makes it a little more of a challenge with the similar scratches but that's ok
I think with some time we can figure it out. The Piedmonts have a couple that are similar and that's why when I got seriously involved in it I decided I need to have the cards in hand for accuracy.

These are all plate scratches. I've added quite a few since these pictures were taken.
DSCN0383.jpg
DSCN0385.jpg
DSCN0392.jpg
DSCN0399.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 11-24-2016 at 09:02 AM.
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  #35  
Old 11-24-2016, 12:42 PM
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ED, I found a scratch that matches Tenney. There are two Engle scratches so far
and one of them is the same as Tenney.
Engle 2 Matches Tenney.jpgTenney.jpg

Here's the other Engle
Engle.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 11-24-2016 at 12:45 PM.
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  #36  
Old 11-25-2016, 08:50 PM
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Default E90-1

Hi Ed

You and I have had some interesting discussions regarding E90-1 cards these past 10 years . Glad to hear you still have your set.
I put this 120-card set together in the mid-1990's. In recent years, when the price of the Joe Jax went "bananas", I broke up this
set and sold 77 % of it. Shown below are 10 of the 28 cards I kept.

Anyhow, none of these 28 cards have any of the so-called "plate scratches" on their backs. Not even the slightest trace of any "ink
streaks".

Furthermore, I compared notes with a fellow E90-1 collector nearby in Pennsylvania, who has a complete 120-card set (and approx.
60 dupes). And the only cards in his collection with "ink streaks" are Demmitt, Joss (portrait), Overall, Phelps, Stone (left arm), Jeff
Sweeney & Roy Thomas. Also, he has an extra Joss (portrait) and Jeff Sweeney which do NOT have "ink streaks". Total = 208 cards.

This results to only 3.3 % of this particular 208-card sample with this printing anomaly. In the past 25 years, I have seen many E90
cards, that I would venture to say a larger sample of these cards will yield even a lower percentage. Therefore, can we really rely on
such inconsistencies in attempting to determine a valid sheet layout ?

I don't think so.









. .












Incidentally, Ed......your sample percentage (4/125 = 3.2 %) coincides with the sample percentage that I noted above (3.3 %).


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 11-26-2016 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Added "Incidentally, Ed......"
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  #37  
Old 11-26-2016, 07:00 AM
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Default Where's the # "2" & "The Dog"?

Here's One from Mr. Keeler...
The Plate Scratch Runs Across Mr. Keeler's Chest!

Curious...
Does Anyone Else See the # "2"
On the Bottom RiGHT SiDe of His Shirt!?
It's appears in the Black/White Area
To the RiGHT, Under the "Y" From the N Y Insignia...
If You Stare at it, the "2" Comes More ta Life!

Reminds me of the old Cards,
Where they ask You if You can See the Dog in the Picture!?
Can You?
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File Type: jpg E90-1 Keeler_PinkBackGround_Front_With_Number_2.jpg (43.0 KB, 230 views)
File Type: jpg Hiden Dog....jpg (80.0 KB, 230 views)
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishdenny View Post
Here's One from Mr. Keeler...
The Plate Scratch Runs Across Mr. Keeler's Chest!

Curious...
Does Anyone Else See the # "2"
On the Bottom RiGHT SiDe of His Shirt!?
It's appears in the Black/White Area
To the RiGHT, Under the "Y" From the N Y Insignia...
If You Stare at it, the "2" Comes More ta Life!

Reminds me of the old Cards,
Where they ask You if You can See the Dog in the Picture!?
Can You?
Hi Denny,

I have come across a few E90-1's with scratches through the front in my search.
attachmentQ2KJX7I7.jpg
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  #39  
Old 11-26-2016, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Ed

You and I have had some interesting discussions regarding E90-1 cards these past 10 years . Glad to hear you still have your set.
I put this 120-card set together in the mid-1990's. In recent years, when the price of the Joe Jax went "bananas", I broke up this
set and sold 77 % of it. Shown below are 10 of the 28 cards I kept.

Anyhow, none of these 28 cards have any of the so-called "plate scratches" on their backs. Not even the slightest trace of any "ink
streaks".

Furthermore, I compared notes with a fellow E90-1 collector nearby in Pennsylvania, who has a complete 120-card set (and approx.
60 dupes). And the only cards in his collection with "ink streaks" are Demmitt, Joss (portrait), Overall, Phelps, Stone (left arm), Jeff
Sweeney & Roy Thomas. Also, he has an extra Joss (portrait) and Jeff Sweeney which do NOT have "ink streaks". Total = 208 cards.

This results to only 3.3 % of this particular 208-card sample with this printing anomaly. In the past 25 years, I have seen many E90
cards, that I would venture to say a larger sample of these cards will yield even a lower percentage. Therefore, can we really rely on
such inconsistencies in attempting to determine a valid sheet layout ?

I don't think so.

Incidentally, Ed......your sample percentage (4/125 = 3.2 %) coincides with the sample percentage that I noted above (3.3 %).


TED Z
.
Hi Ted,
I know your post is directed at Ed but I would like to respond too.

No offense but I don't think you understand the plate scratches. I would be happy to bring some plate scratch cards and meet with you sometime in
the future and have a discussion.

I'm not sure how they occurred but I think it probably happened in the moving
of them in the printing process.

Some of the stones were very large and I have seen pictures from around
that time period where they were stored on racks similar to this.
1 Litography_archive_of_the_Bayerisches_Vermessungsamt.jpg
1 sl-374.jpg

I'm sure a large number of sheets were printed before the scratches occurred
and only a small number would have the scratches on them. Using this test
sheet I made you can see only 25% of the cards have a scratch (9 out of 36).
1 E90-1 test sheet.jpg
So combining this with the number of sheets that were printed before the scratch occurred would result in a low % although I think 3.3% is too low
of an estimate.

I think describing them as inconsistent is incorrect. The great thing about
them is they are very consistent. A scratch on a subject from a particular
sheet position is always in the same place.

Here's multiple examples of a Seymour scratch.
Seymour 1 Group Back.jpg
Seymour 1 Group.jpg
There are two on ebay right now with that same exact scratch.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...cAAOSw3KFWchuH
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...4AAOSwnGJWSo7F

That Seymour scratch is on this sheet.
1 Sheet%20F-B[2].jpg

Here's the Seymour under that one.
Seymour 2.jpg
Seymour 1-Seymour 2.jpg

Cicotte is next to Seymour on that sheet and Here's some of them.

This Cicottte lines up with the Seymour's I posted above.
Cicotte 1.jpg
Cicotte 1-seymour.jpg

This pair
Cicotte 4.jpg
Seymour 2.jpg
Cicotte 4 -seymour 2.jpg

And another pairing
Cicotte 5.jpg
Seymour 6.jpg
Cicotte 5-Seymour 6.jpg

And there's also a front mark that shows Cicotte and Seymour were next to each other on this sheet.
1 Seymour%20_5_ - Copy.jpg
1 Seymour [5] - Copy - Copy.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 11-26-2016 at 12:37 PM.
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  #40  
Old 11-26-2016, 07:39 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Hi Ted,
I know your post is directed at Ed but I would like to respond too.

No offense but I don't think you understand the plate scratches. I would be happy to bring some plate scratch cards and meet with you sometime in
the future and have a discussion.

I'm not sure how they occurred but I think it probably happened in the moving
of them in the printing process.

Pat

I fully understand what you refer to as "plate scratches". I've followed your posts regarding your Piedmont 150 analysis.
Furthermore, when I was a teenager, I worked as an apprentice in a print shop and I am familiar with printing practices.

I respect all the time & effort you have put into your T206 project. However, we are now talking about E90-1 cards. E90
cards were printed by a Lithographic firm in Philadelphia (1908-1910). The T206's were printed by American Litho (NYC)
and it's my understanding that state-of-the-art rotary off-set presses were used to print these cards.

I took the trouble of scanning Ebay's current listing of E90-1 cards. There are 178 unique E90-1 cards listed whose backs
are visible in this listing. Only 7 of these cards exhibit "ink streaks"....resulting in 3.9 %.

The grand total (of this group and the group noted in Post #36) is 386 samples. Only 14 of these cards have "ink streaks"
resulting in a mere 3.6 %.

I repeat: such a limited sampling (plus the varying characteristics of the "ink streaks") of these E90-1 cards certainly does
not make for a reliable (or scientific) method for attempting to determine valid sheet layout, or series structure ?


TED Z
.
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  #41  
Old 11-26-2016, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat

I fully understand what you refer to as "plate scratches". I've followed your posts regarding your Piedmont 150 analysis.
Furthermore, when I was a teenager, I worked as an apprentice in a print shop and I am familiar with printing practices.

I respect all the time & effort you have put into your T206 project. However, we are now talking about E90-1 cards. E90
cards were printed by a Lithographic firm in Philadelphia (1908-1910). The T206's were printed by American Litho (NYC)
and it's my understanding that state-of-the-art rotary off-set presses were used to print these cards.

I took the trouble of scanning Ebay's current listing of E90-1 cards. There are 178 unique E90-1 cards listed whose backs
are visible in this listing. Only 7 of these cards exhibit "ink streaks"....resulting in 3.9 %.

The grand total (of this group and the group noted in Post #36) is 386 samples. Only 14 of these cards have "ink streaks"
resulting in a mere 3.6 %.

I repeat: such a limited sampling (plus the varying characteristics of the "ink streaks") of these E90-1 cards certainly does
not make for a reliable (or scientific) method for attempting to determine valid sheet layout, or series structure ?


TED Z
.
Ted,
I don't see how where they were printed makes a difference. A scratch is a
scratch and where they were printed shouldn't factor into it.

Neither should the %. If enough scratches are found to connect them and
come up with a sheet or partial sheet layout it doesn't matter how many
cards you have to look through to find them. I have saved scans from quite
a few that are listed on ebay and there are a lot more than the seven you found.

I didn't want to go back and look through all of them but I did look through
a few pages and found twelve but I could only attach nine links.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...sAAOSw4shX60qP

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-G...sAAOSwx2dYDj3P

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...8AAOSw9IpX1Jsl
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Amer...IAAMXQXZZReKdd

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...sAAOSwnDZT99lV
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...gAAOSwKrxUY311
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...8AAOSwTA9X61yw

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...AAAOSwu4BVoUuB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-E90-...YAAOSwqfNXj~QP
I also don't follow what you mean by varying ink streaks, they were caused
by something scratching the surface it's not like someone drew a straight line
through the back plate.

Last edited by Pat R; 11-26-2016 at 09:35 PM.
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  #42  
Old 11-26-2016, 10:30 PM
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irishdenny irishdenny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Hi Denny,

I have come across a few E90-1's with scratches through the front in my search.
Attachment 252299
Well Patrick...
Didn't Take You Long before You Found "The Dog"!
In Regards to Collecting E90-1 w/ Plate Scatches,
Seems THeY FiND me more Often
THaN I FiND THeM!

I Guess we Need ta Move OVaR...
Cause Here Come the T206 Guys

WHaT Do You Make of the "2" oN Mr. Keeler's Card?
JuST Curious ta See if There are Any Who MiGHT Have an Opinion oN'em!?

As Always...
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  #43  
Old 11-27-2016, 07:35 AM
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Default Re: E90-1s have plate scratches too!

Hello Ted,
I was anticipating you'd weigh in on this thread, though I'd hoped your reply would be a more constructive one. I don't know if we'll ever be able to present a hypothetical E90-1 sheet from the scratches. Pat, as usual, has done some terrific work and we already have several dozen examples, including neighbors and matches. We've found evidence of double (or more) printing on a sheet, which surprised me considerably. At this point we lack the double name and ghost images that have helped advance the T206 research. We've only been at a week, and I remain hopeful that more evidence will surface, perhaps in a form we little expect.

Reconstructing the sheet; or sheets, obviously; wasn't necessarily the ultimate goal of the project. My goal was merely a deeper understanding of the manner of distribution of E90-1s. It has been obvious to me for years that the long-held three series theory is woefully inadequate in explaining the varying levels of difficulty among the cards. A chance observation on a recent acquisition set us off on this voyage of discovery.

Could I impose on you (or your friend) to post scans of the cards with scratches? I'm expecially interested to view the Demmitt to see if it matches any of the two we already have. Two of the finest E90-1 sets in existence reside right here in Western New York (mine is not one of them). I need to get those two to check their cards as well. And I hope that other evidence will continue to arrive, so we can advance this little project.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed so far; and expecially to Pat, whose work I continue to view with amazement. Keep 'em coming!
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  #44  
Old 11-27-2016, 07:46 AM
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Ed, Here's a scratch that's on three different subjects.
Clarke Matches Grant & Hartzell (Batting).jpgHartzell (Batting) 1.jpg
Grant Matches Hartzell (Batting).jpg

This Bender is one of only a few that has a left to right scratch, most of the
scratches are right to left.
Bender.jpg
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  #45  
Old 11-27-2016, 08:35 AM
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It seems the only reason where something is mfg'd would be important will be if we can find the press that had the scratch or are able to put a sheet together by locating it? But generally I would agree that where a card is produced doesn't really help with where they were located on a sheet. Those scratches might help though....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Ted,
I don't see how where they were printed makes a difference. A scratch is a
scratch and where they were printed shouldn't factor into it.

Neither should the %. If enough scratches are found to connect them and
come up with a sheet or partial sheet layout it doesn't matter how many
cards you have to look through to find them. I have saved scans from quite
a few that are listed on ebay and there are a lot more than the seven you found.

I didn't want to go back and look through all of them but I did look through
a few pages and found twelve but I could only attach nine links.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...sAAOSw4shX60qP

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-G...sAAOSwx2dYDj3P

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...8AAOSw9IpX1Jsl
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Amer...IAAMXQXZZReKdd

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...sAAOSwnDZT99lV
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...gAAOSwKrxUY311
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...8AAOSwTA9X61yw

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-E90-1-A...AAAOSwu4BVoUuB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-E90-...YAAOSwqfNXj~QP
I also don't follow what you mean by varying ink streaks, they were caused
by something scratching the surface it's not like someone drew a straight line
through the back plate.
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  #46  
Old 11-27-2016, 11:04 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Hi Ed

Sorry, that I interjected my opinion. After all the years we have known each other, we have had some meaningful discussions on this Candy set.
But, my post appears to be causing problems; and, possibly alienating our friendship.

But consider this....Including your data (125/4 "scratches") we have a total of 511 samples of E90-1 cards with only 18 examples of "ink streaks".
This results in a mere 3.5 % with this anomaly from this large sample of cards. And it's considerably less percentage than the T206 Piedmont 150
data that Pat has analyzed.
Therefore, the remark by some here...."what difference does it make" what printer (or machinery) was used to produce these E90-1 cards, is very
nave (if not uninformed).

Anyway, I hope as you do that this survey may provide us some ideas of how the various series of this set were printed (1908 - Summer of 1910).

This is a question you and I and others on this forum have discussed ever since I posted this E90-1 thread in March 2006......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=89941


Take care......I am choosing to refrain from any further inputs to this thread.

TED Z
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Old 11-27-2016, 11:46 AM
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Default Re: E90-1s have plate scratches too!

Ted,
Please understand that your posts in this thread in no way diminish my esteem for you as a collector or a friend. I apoolgize if my reply to you was interpreted in that way. Your experience and knowledge are a great resource in the hobby, and will be for many years to come. I invite you to keep an open mind as we progress in this venture and, of course, to add anything you feel might add to our knowledge. As i said previously, I have no idea if we'll be able to reconstruct an entire sheet or sheets, but we already have discovered several interesting and heretofore unknown facts about the configuration of the sheets and thererby a few clues as to the distribution of the set.

Warmest Regards,

Ed
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  #48  
Old 11-27-2016, 05:07 PM
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Ed, Here's another three subject match.

Crawford Matches Knight & Roy Thomas.jpgKnight.jpg
Thomas ,Roy.jpg

Fred Mitchell matches Joss Pitching.
Mitchell, Fred.jpg
Joss 2 B Back - Copy.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 11-27-2016 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Added Mitchell/Joss
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  #49  
Old 11-27-2016, 11:03 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
But consider this....Including your data (125/4 "scratches") we have a total of 511 samples of E90-1 cards with only 18 examples of "ink streaks".
This results in a mere 3.5 % with this anomaly from this large sample of cards. And it's considerably less percentage than the T206 Piedmont 150
data that Pat has analyzed.
Therefore, the remark by some here...."what difference does it make" what printer (or machinery) was used to produce these E90-1 cards, is very
nave (if not uninformed).

Anyway, I hope as you do that this survey may provide us some ideas of how the various series of this set were printed (1908 - Summer of 1910).

This is a question you and I and others on this forum have discussed ever since I posted this E90-1 thread in March 2006......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=89941


Take care......I am choosing to refrain from any further inputs to this thread.

TED Z
.
Ted makes some interesting points, some more interesting than others.

The percentage of cards showing marks from plate scratches or streaks is currently fairly low. This could be from a few things. It could be that collectively we've only looked at/for them for a brief time. Pat has pointed out a couple of the other limiting things. In comparison to the P150's there are fewer scratches so fewer cards from a sheet will be affected. And when the scratch happened will have a lot of bearing on the percentage found. I think it's simply too early to draw much of a conclusion from that percentage.


The question of what sort of press produced the set is a good one.

If they were produced on a then fairly cutting edge rotary offset press that used metal plates it opens up a lot of complications. The plates at the time were expensive and not simple to produce. http://sites.tech.uh.edu/digitalmedi...y_of_Litho.pdf
I don't see a mention of them being saved for reuse, but it's possible they may have been as it was a fairly common thing with the stones. (Some were saved, others were resurfaced for reuse)

If the plates were saved, they would be just as likely to be damaged as a stone. That damage might be different, as different accidents happen to large, inflexible heavy things than happen to light flexible things that happen to also be large.
Diagonal streaks aren't all that likely on a rotary press. And consistent diagonal streaks are even less likely. Streaks parallel to the direction the sheet travels are likely, but these marks are not parallel to either a sheet run sideways or vertically. And a diagonal layout for rectangular objects would be really odd.
Rotary offset plates can get scratched, just as stones can. I have a 1981 Fleer card with a nice red line from a plate scratch, and I'm very sure a rotary offset press was used.

So to some extent the type of press used and how the printer handled the plates does matter. If plates weren't typically saved, consistent diagonal marks on series separated by time would most likely indicate a stone rather than plates.
Another possibility would be the printing of various groups of fronts in different quantities either at the same time, or consecutively - group 1 Monday and Tuesday, group 2 Wednesday........with the backs printed last. I think that's unlikely, especially as one group typically shows flaws from dry or worn plates. (Using plates to include stones for simplicity)


Even if the marks are indeed streaks, they're consistent enough to give us an idea of what cards were next to each other.

There are fairly consistent streaks on more modern cards, once the rate the sheets were fed at got high enough static electricity became a problem, and the solution was dragging a string much like tinsel along the sheets being fed into the press. With proper drying in between colors, they shouldn't happen, but on a lot of 50's era cards they're common.
I don't think the presses of the era, even rotary ones had a high enough rate. But some part of the press being loose might cause a streak.
Personally I believe these are too consistent to be anything other than plate damage. Scratches most likely, but if it was a rotary press they could also be cracks, which would explain why they're less common.

All in all, they're worth studying.


Steve B
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  #50  
Old 11-28-2016, 05:25 PM
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Hi Ed,
I haven't posted all of the scans that I have yet but here is a list of the scratches from all the input so far. There are 60 different scratches on
49 different subjects.

Bailey
Bender
Bresnahan - matches Clement
Chance
Chase 2
Clarke (Philadelphia) - matches Grant and Hartzell (Batting)
Clement - matches Bresnahan
Cobb - 2 (two different scratches)
Collins - matches Donavan
Crawford - matches Knight and Roy Thomas
Criger
Demmitt 2 - matches Overall
Donavan - matches Collins
Engle 2 - matches Tenney
Gibson (Front View)
Grant - matches Clarke (Philadelphia) and Hartzell (Batting)
Gray - matches McInnes
Hartzell (Batting) - matches Clarke (Philadelphia) and Grant
Howell (Follow Through)
Howell (Wind-up)
Jennings
Joss (Portrait) 2
Joss (Pitching) 2
Keeler (Pink Background)
Knight - matches Crawford and Roy Thomas
Krause
Lajoie - matches Marquard
Lumley - matches Mathewson
Marquard - matches Lajoie
Mathewson 3 - Matches Lumley
McInnes - matches Gray
McQuillan
Miller
Mitchell, Fred
Mullin
Phelps 2 - matches Stone (Left Hand)
Schlitzer
Stone (Left Hand) - matches Phelps
Stone (No Hands) 2
Summers
Sweeney (New York)
Tannehill, Jesse
Tannehill, Lee
Tenney - matches Engle
Thomas, Roy - matches Crawford and Knight
Thomas, Ira
Tinker
Wallace

Last edited by Pat R; 11-29-2016 at 08:50 AM.
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