NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-13-2018, 11:05 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 27,596
Default VCBC #7, 1996, PSA & ASA Card Grading Svc's - Smoke Detectors Without Batteries

By popular demand.










.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-13-2018, 11:12 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,972
Default

Steve Timmons and SCD -- now that brings back memories. The only time in my decades of collecting I had to mention that I was a lawyer was when Steve Timmons at first refused to take some trimmed cards back from me.
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-15-2018, 07:46 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 27,596
Default

In our collections there are hundreds and thousands of alterations that are graded numerically. As long as it's in a slab it's ok though . As I had said in our email, if this was about PWCC doing something the pitchforks would be out. As it is not many folks care if they have altered cards they are unaware of. As long as the snotty nosed kids don't detect Desmond's work, who has been doing it before the kiddo graders were even born, it's all good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Steve Timmons and SCD -- now that brings back memories. The only time in my decades of collecting I had to mention that I was a lawyer was when Steve Timmons at first refused to take some trimmed cards back from me.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-15-2018, 09:32 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,972
Default

I think a sizeable number of people don't care, but that there is also an element that is just naÔve and check their intelligence and common sense and critical faculties at the door when it comes to cards and memorabilia. The sleazebags of the hobby have been preying on these guys for years.
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-16-2018, 08:23 AM
bnorth's Avatar
bnorth bnorth is offline
Ben North
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 5,253
Default

Great article, I agreed back then and still agree with it today. Can see why it is not too popular on this forum though.
__________________
T210 Series 3 Ft Worth, looking for low end examples and especially ones with a Y shaped hole punch. I also have some extra T210's for trade.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-16-2018, 10:10 AM
Bill77 Bill77 is offline
Bill Avery
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 248
Default

Fun read, I guess the more things change the more they stay the same.

The only thing missing from the article was everyone's concern that their cards were being changed out for lesser cards and given to priority clients. In retrospect I think the concern over cards being switched probably had more to do with people thinking their cards were better than they actually were, because we all know that our cards are all 9s and 10s.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-12-2019, 11:36 PM
rickyb80 rickyb80 is offline
Ric.ky Bur.ch
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2
Default It's possible many people overestimate their own ability to grade cards

It is quite common for people, in general, to overestimate their own abilities.
I joined PSA a few years ago and didn't make it past the initial 15-card order. I got upset because my cards received poor grades and cursed PSA in every way imaginable. I took the grades they assigned to my cards personally. I knew my cards weren't perfect, but it seemed that my expectations were always a grade or so above the one assigned.

I spent a couple years paying very close attention to everything in the collecting world. I learned a lot about many things and the more I educated myself, the less upset I would get with the card grading companies. Part of that was also due to the fact that I had sharpened my ability to identify and acquire quality cards and I was no longer submitting cards that were unworthy of being graded. I reached the point where I could successfully grade my own cards.

Many people think they are at that point, but I can tell you that most people actually are not. It's hard not to raise an eyebrow when I see someone declare grades that are well above what I know a card should be. Most of the time people are stubborn, don't take my advice, and even get upset with me as if I were somehow purporting to be the authority on grading. The truth is, I do not consider myself to be the authority on grading. I can only speak from my own personal experience.

Full understanding requires a sedulous approach that considers the nuances between each year/set. For example, O-Pee-Chee's don't get graded the same as Topps, especially if they were cut in the 60's or 70's. I've heard this had to do with infrequent blade sharpening, which explains the rougher edges on some versus others. Cards are assessed while considering the era in which they were produced, the methods that were used, etc.

Many people do already know these things but there are also many who do not. That is not to say that there is no reason to doubt the grading companies and I realize there are many collectors who are solid at assessing their cards. However, my experience is that most people do overestimate their own abilities, and it's not my job to convince them to take my advice.

Rule of thumb is to "buy the card, not the grade", and those who stick to that will be successful. I amassed nearly my entire collection almost solely on the profits I made buying cards that were clearly under-graded. Granted, there are times I buy a card that looks under-graded, only to receive it and notice a surface issue that was not visible online. In those cases it is still possible to recoup the money I spent with a little patience, quality photos, and a well-worded description.

I only submit to SGC and Beckett. I see way too many people paying huge premiums for over-hyped cards in PSA holders. I have seen them over-grade more cards than I can count, and many blindly assume that anything in a PSA slab is better than anything else in any other slab. I have seen too much inconsistency from PSA, and their slabs leave a lot to be desired.

I do not feel as though the grading company's are taking advantage of anyone. Whether or not one gets involved with grading is a personal choice. It's a matter of personal preference, and an expensive decision for many people. It's hard to have sympathy for anyone willing to invest money into something without first taking the time to gain a full and complete understanding of the process in which they are investing.

The same people who pay to submit their collection without truly possessing the ability to properly assess with precision and without taint of personal bias, are the same people who later complain that they were "ripped off" or "taken advantage of". I am not saying that was the case in Mr. Purdy's article. In fact, I really like the writing and feel there is a lot of truth to it. It's a nostalgic piece that reminds me of the simpler times that I prefer. Perhaps I've gone on a bit of a tangent. My point is, for every person who actually can grade their own cards, there are 10 more who mistakenly believe they can.

Please. I hope nobody takes anything I have said personally. I'm just being honest and this is not directed at anyone in particular.

Take care. By the way this is my first post on Net54.

Cheers,

Ricky
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-13-2019, 05:48 AM
glynparson's Avatar
glynparson glynparson is online now
Glyn Parson
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Blandon PA
Posts: 1,873
Default

Ah the kid grader line again. Every grader I know and I know most of them is north of 40. Most are around the same age as Desmond I believe. Why is it so hard to make points with the truth in this day and age and an article written by someone with an agenda 23 years ago means little today. You defending bvg and constantly ripping psa is a joke. It shows you are either ignorant, blind, or just so loyal because they are your friends. I think you are a nice guy Leon but I think you either spin your grading opinions or just flat out donít know what your talking about. Go ahead rip
Into me I wonít be checking back in because I donít feel like fighting with people
Over the internet. Anyone wants to discuss feel
Free to see me at the National or any other show i attend.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:36 AM
bobbvc's Avatar
bobbvc bobbvc is offline
Bob B.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 793
Default

What's an ASA?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-13-2019, 01:20 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 1,466
Default Reality check

Reality 1 - 3rd party grading is inconsistent at best (grossly incompetent at worst) - I have seen cards that imnsho were over graded, under graded and grossly mis-graded. For those well versed this is obvious and easy enough to see. (As has been raised above - there are many not so well versed)

Reality 2 - There are altered cards in 3rd party grading holders (we will likely never know which ones as anyone who owns one either is unaware or if aware, unwilling to take the financial hit of being honest). The grading companies ARE PART of the problem - when the very first card that PSA graded - the famed Gretzky-McNall Wagner is publicly known to have been altered (trimmed) and still sits in a PSA 8 holder - violating the very standard PSA claims to follow in grading - the actions (or lack thereof) speak way louder than words. While this is probably the most visible case, it is far from isolated and not a problem exclusive to any 1 grading company.

Reality 3 - The addition of 3rd party grading into the marketplace has vastly increased both the number of people "comfortable" buying cards as well as the prices for those cards. There is a whole market for people who - "buy the holder, not the card". They are certainly entitled to do so, but do so incurring the risks mentioned earlier in this thread.

My opinion - - While a VERY imperfect system for the reasons mentioned above and more, the net effect of 3rd party grading has been a benefit to hobby health as a whole. As in so many other markets - the more educated consumer is always in a position to make a more educated purchase decision. How educated one chooses to get is a personal decision.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-13-2019, 01:29 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,972
Default

Leon could you also post the companion article on card doctoring?
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-13-2019, 05:03 PM
Lorewalker's Avatar
Lorewalker Lorewalker is offline
Chase
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 215
Default

In 1996 this article was probably cutting edge. I was not quite collecting then however with grading being fairly new, this was probably very controversial and a bold move by the author to print it.

In the short time I have been on this forum, I have read many posts that point out dozens more examples that are far more damaging and convincing than what is being pointed out in the article.

As great as grading is, it is also giving a license to card doctors to steal. It does not help that it appears a majority of collectors do not care or are not experienced enough to know what to look for once the card is blessed. These guys have to be laughing to themselves.

Not sure you can shock the consciences' of collectors enough that anything will ever change. Cards will continue to be worked and collectors will continually look the other way.
__________________
( h @ $ e A n + l e y
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-13-2019, 05:18 PM
felada felada is offline
D@vid Fel@
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 262
Default

VCBC was great when it was around. There were a few good articles about Hager. My favorite article was the one that Barry wrote about 19th century type cards. Best was his description of a few that fell into the category of youíll never own one so why bother level of scarcity.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-13-2019, 06:05 PM
buymycards's Avatar
buymycards buymycards is offline
Rick McQuillan
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,499
Default On topic

It is amazing that the majority of this article still applies to grading in 2019. Nearly 23 years later and most of the points are still valid.

Rick
__________________
Rick McQuillan


T213-2 128 down 57 to go.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:39 AM
rickyb80 rickyb80 is offline
Ric.ky Bur.ch
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2
Default

This article is from issue #7 and apparently it is almost impossible to find nowadays because, reportedly, PSA sent people throughout the country to buy them all up to avoid negative impact on their business.

Good luck trying to locate a copy today.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:58 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,972
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyb80 View Post
This article is from issue #7 and apparently it is almost impossible to find nowadays because, reportedly, PSA sent people throughout the country to buy them all up to avoid negative impact on their business.

Good luck trying to locate a copy today.
More likely they bought up the remaining inventory. How would you send people "throughout the country" to buy up single issues?
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-14-2019 at 11:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:20 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 4,104
Default

Peter-Donít let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:29 PM
Marckus99 Marckus99 is offline
Mark Rios
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 476
Default

Slabber collectors,

Live by the sword, then die buying and getting burned with it.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-15-2019, 08:32 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 27,596
Default

Jay, unfortunately your rose colored glasses are getting in your way of good senses. Maybe it's your thumb in the picture again? Many would disagree with you, me included. I would say lhat SGC gets similar scrutiny and they do advertise (and grade vintage far better than PSA, imo). And I should mention that all grading companies, including SGC, make mistakes as humans are grading the cards. Personally, I think they made a mistake on the Yum Yum I have. But they are still better than PSA, to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 03-15-2019 at 08:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-15-2019, 09:24 AM
Throttlesteer Throttlesteer is offline
Anson
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 513
Default

Besides obvious errors (doctoring, counterfeits, etc), how can one even assess consistency anymore? Forget which TPG you're a fan of; The standards have changed over time. Reslabbing just confuses things even more. Yes buy the card not the holder. But no TPG can boast consistency.
__________________
An$on Lyt!e
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:21 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 4,104
Default

Leon-everyone should use the grading service they like best. I don't grade that many cards, but when I grade it is for one of two reasons: 1. Market value in the holder, and 2. Participation in a registry set. PSA is the choice for me on both counts. I think they do a great job, but if not for the aforementioned points I would not grade at all. I don't need anyone to tell me if the cards I collect are genuine.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:49 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 27,596
Default

It is a wonderful hobby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Leon-everyone should use the grading service they like best. I don't grade that many cards, but when I grade it is for one of two reasons: 1. Market value in the holder, and 2. Participation in a registry set. PSA is the choice for me on both counts. I think they do a great job, but if not for the aforementioned points I would not grade at all. I don't need anyone to tell me if the cards I collect are genuine.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:54 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,972
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
It is a wonderful hobby.
Leon, renewing my request if you have time to post the companion piece on Desmond.
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:03 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,972
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.
Jay are you yet convinced it's more than "once in a while"? Do you still think "PSA does a great job"? If not, no worries, much more is coming.
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-27-2019 at 09:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:19 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,219
Default

Jay was at least correct that PSA cards provide more market value, and sad to say that six months from now, he may still be correct. Is anything really going to change?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:25 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,972
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Jay was at least correct that PSA cards provide more market value, and sad to say that six months from now, he may still be correct. Is anything really going to change?
If nothing else, the Kool-Aid won't taste quite so sugary.
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:29 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
If nothing else, the Kool-Aid won't taste quite so sugary.
I think there may be small changes. Some collectors will leave the hobby. Others will cut back and not buy as much. But I don't think the impact will be great. Bottom line is there is still too much money to be made, and nobody will give that up.

That said, I hope I'm wrong and we have a hobby earthquake.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:41 AM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 5,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I think there may be small changes. Some collectors will leave the hobby. Others will cut back and not buy as much. But I don't think the impact will be great. Bottom line is there is still too much money to be made, and nobody will give that up.

That said, I hope I'm wrong and we have a hobby earthquake.

Barry, I hope youíre right. Iím living literally a few miles from the San Andreas fault, closer to it than Brent or PSA for that matter. I didnít cause the scandal or the San Andreas. I will not accept responsibility for either. To put it simply,

Theyíre not my fault!!!
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER BUT CLEARLY........

GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION


518/1000 Monster Number

Over*760* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-19.
Over 550 sales with satisfied Board members served.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
VCBC #7, July 1996, Card Restoration - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Leon Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 10 04-16-2018 08:15 AM
Have a smoke and a T card Leon Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 29 03-11-2011 07:57 PM
Crack Batteries Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 8 10-27-2006 01:25 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:56 AM.


ebay GSB