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  #101  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Not a great scan but I think this is the Baker.

Attachment 335721

Attachment 335722
WOW!!! Yes it is.
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  #102  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:36 PM
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Which means that PSA has now also missed...

Baker PSA DNA

...and now we're up in the big bucks ($24,000):

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=53245
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  #103  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:39 PM
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Wow. That one was mine. I bought it through REA in 2015. It had JSA authentication at the time, and I subsequently had PSA authenticate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
Which means that PSA has now also missed...

Baker PSA DNA

...and now we're up in the big bucks ($24,000):

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=53245
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  #104  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:46 PM
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Somebody should check the 2013 Heritage ones.
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  #105  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonxmay View Post
Wow. That one was mine. I bought it through REA in 2015. It had JSA authentication at the time, and I subsequently had PSA authenticate it.
Wow, I am speechless. As someone who deals in autographs, this seriously makes my heart hurt. I currently only own one signed T206 , and the owner of it before me (board member) had it since the 1980's. I've always felt it was authentic but alas it never passed TPA. Now I see all of these recently created ones and it makes me sick to my stomach.
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  #106  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:57 PM
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Default T206 Autos

This so bad for the hobby on so many levels. T206 autos are such a cool rarity. These are my two both bought from well known net54ers. Don't have any doubts, but if anyone wants to do detective work I would appreciate it.

Snodgrass is Polar Bear and Doyle is Sweet Cap 350-460 42 overprint.

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File Type: jpg s-l1600.jpg (76.4 KB, 876 views)

Last edited by t206kid; 11-28-2018 at 03:58 PM.
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  #107  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:59 PM
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I am sure this goes well beyond T206s. I was planning to bid on a few in the upcoming Memory Lane auction and of course now wont even consider it.
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  #108  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:04 PM
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I recently had the SGC put into a PSA holder. I believe the other is still JSA. Not sure when purchased. I've been a bad record keeper. I believe I have had the Piedmont for %+ years but the other is more recent- maybe last 2 years. Anyone have bad news for me??
Flick 1909 T-206 Piedmont front.jpg

flick 1909 T-206 Sweet Caporal.jpg
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  #109  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theshleps View Post
I recently had the SGC put into a PSA holder. I believe the other is still JSA. Not sure when purchased. I've been a bad record keeper. I believe I have had the Piedmont for %+ years but the other is more recent- maybe last 2 years. Anyone have bad news for me??
Attachment 335735

Attachment 335736
Your bottom left corner looks worse, but the right corner crease and, more convincingly, the center crease look spot on to this card.

Sold by sg713 on 02/22/2015

Found on CardTarget
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  #110  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:15 PM
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Sickening.
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  #111  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bn2cardz View Post
Your bottom left corner looks worse, but the right corner crease and, more convincingly, the center crease look spot on to this card.

Sold by sg713 on 02/22/2015

Found on CardTarget
Wow, card #7.

This is the first one I've seen with added corner wear.
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  #112  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:15 PM
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Same Buyer on the Baker. Sold by painthistorian on February 23 2015.

Baker Sale.jpg
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  #113  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:17 PM
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Scott is a board member...perhaps he can sort back through emails/records and see who the buyer was.
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  #114  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bn2cardz View Post
Your bottom left corner looks worse, but the right corner crease and, more convincingly, the center crease look spot on to this card.

Sold by sg713 on 02/22/2015

Found on CardTarget
That's Scott, maybe he can help on the buyer.
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  #115  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:24 PM
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Horrible for the hobby and this clearly reflects badly on the TPAs, but this is great detective work. Fantastic team effort in exposing this.
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  #116  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post

In Spring 2016 Hunt...
4. Rhoades Hands at Chest

Hunt SGC Quartet
The first 3 from Hunt are bad. Odds are so is the Zimmermann.
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  #117  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:44 PM
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I have a bad feeling about these too. Fairly newly graded, red SGC label, and ball point pen signature on the Cicotte. The Marquards look like the one that opened pandoras box.

Cicotte was Hunt Auctions July 2018 (Sold for $11k) https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=222&lot_qual=
Marquards was Hunt Auctions March 2017 (Both sold for over $1k)
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File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 5.41.26 PM.jpg (10.2 KB, 801 views)
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 5.41.54 PM.jpg (9.5 KB, 803 views)

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  #118  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:45 PM
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10-15 years ago it was rare to find a signed T206. Now they're all over the place and I don't know many people who didn't find this unusual. I've never bought one and never will for that reason, among many. There's too many frauds in this hobby as it is so you really need to stick to materials that can't be faked. And even then you need to worry about shill bidders, the Mastros of the world and their coconspirators. Best to avoid adding risk to an already risky hobby. And we've all been burned once at least so no one is above this.
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  #119  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:46 PM
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All four are from the same submission number.
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  #120  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:49 PM
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Seller: colleenscollect
Feb 22, 2015


Last edited by Thromdog; 11-28-2018 at 04:50 PM.
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  #121  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:49 PM
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This cant be that hard. Start with the auction houses since they have the most to lose. Ask who consigned the cards. If they refuse post their names here and I bet they will face losing a lot of business. They should be the most interested in solving this issue since it will diminish their realizations if this is not solved.
Clean Sweep sells a lot of autographed material. Steve Verkman should be leading the charge to catch these forgers.
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  #122  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:52 PM
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The Zimmermann is very similar to this exemplar.
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  #123  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:52 PM
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another try, my Crawfords, all now in PSA
Crawford 1909 T206 throwing sweet caporal.jpg

Crawford 1909 Sweet Caporal 350 T 206.jpg

Crawford 1909 T-206 Piedmont .jpg

Last edited by theshleps; 11-28-2018 at 04:53 PM.
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  #124  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
That's Scott, maybe he can help on the buyer.
i bought the fake Flick from Hunt 2/24/16

Last edited by theshleps; 11-28-2018 at 04:58 PM.
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  #125  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:03 PM
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Whelp I think I found the Cicotte one. There seems to be additional minor creasing and scuffs done to the autograph version, but as we saw with the Flick this forger likes to add a few new creases from time to time. The centering of the card on the front and back are identical. And the crease on the lower right side by his hand are identical. There is even an identical crease on the back in the sweet caporal border in the lower right side. The corners of the card are identical. And both have Fact. 30 backs. Not as concrete as when I found the Rhoades, but I'm 99% certain this is it. Take a look at the links to see for yourself.

This card went from a $65 card to a $11k card.

Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eet-1817520994

Hunt Auctions link:
https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=222&lot_qual=

Last edited by The Nasty Nati; 11-28-2018 at 09:03 PM.
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  #126  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:07 PM
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is anyone checking their 1933'S, exhibits, play balls, other tobacco, etc?
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  #127  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1treasuretrove View Post
Fantastic team effort in exposing this.
Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if TPGs put this much effort into authenticating?
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  #128  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:11 PM
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Comparison

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  #129  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati View Post
Whelp I think I found the Cicotte one. There seems to be additional minor creasing and scuffs done to the autograph version, but as we saw with the Flick this forger likes to add a few new creases from time to time The centering of the card on the front and back are identical. And the crease on the lower left side by his hand are identical. So are the corners of the card. And both have Fact. 30 backs. Not as concrete as when I found the Rhoades, but I'm 99% certain this is it. Take a look at the links to see for yourself.

This card went from a $65 card to a $11k card.

Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eet-1817520994

Hunt Auctions link:
https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=222&lot_qual=
That scan is blurry so I can't tell for sure. I was looking at that same Cicotte card on Worthpoint earlier today and just wasn't 100% sure on it.
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  #130  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:30 PM
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The Flick was purchased from Scott by the same buyer.

Flick Sale.jpg
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  #131  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
The Flick was purchased from Scott by the same buyer.

Attachment 335761
This is a full blown scandal now.

At this point, board members should insist that SGC, PSA, and JSA immediately search their records for all cert #'s submitted by this forger and issue an immediate hobby-wide recall notice on each cert, and post it here.
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  #132  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
The Flick was purchased from Scott by the same buyer.

Attachment 335761
Looks like the same buyer also bought a Shaw, Murray, and a Crawford in the same transaction with Scott. UGH.
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  #133  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:42 PM
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This is really shitty. Im currently investigating several fabricated T206 errors that are graded and have sold for up to 11k at auctioN.
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  #134  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
This is a full blown scandal now.

At this point, board members should insist that SGC, PSA, and JSA immediately search their records for all cert #'s submitted by this forger and issue an immediate hobby-wide recall notice on each cert, and post it here.
Agreed. And the auction houses which sold these frauds need to start contacting their consigners and the winners of these bad lots.
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  #135  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
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This is really shitty. Im currently investigating several fabricated T206 errors that are graded and have sold for up to 11k at auctioN.
Chris, are you referring to ghost images and anomalies like that? If so, have you found anything yet (saw the Cobb ghost card).
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  #136  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:54 PM
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I have found one faked ghost and am investigating another, just waiting on scans. Its a big part of why I have taken a break and why I have started posting again.

My worry is they start buying privately or make modifications to the card (creases, dirt, ink, stamps) to differentiate it from any previous scans.

Not good.
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  #137  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:54 PM
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Picked up this Marquard 2 months ago in PWCC, my only signed T206 HOFer. JSA LOA is a little over a year old, and it sold at Huggins shortly after. Similar slant to the originally posted Marquard, however slightly different sig.

If it's not genuine, curious if it may have previously sold in an A holder? Huggins had disclosed the card as being trimmed.

T206 Rube Marquard signed.jpgT206 Rube Marquard signed back.jpg
T206 Rube Marquard signed JSA LOA.jpg
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  #138  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:06 PM
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THIS many 206 and nobody here has sold the buyer any?
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  #139  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:14 PM
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Edit: Nevermind, I made a mistake with the Marquard

What do you guys think, same card? This was the closest I can find. But I don't think this is the same card because the border on the bottom is thicker....Unless this guy trims cards too. Yikes. However that signature looks a lot like the Marquard rejected signature that blew everything up.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1909-11-t206-rube-marquard-follow-419403623


This could really ruin JSA's reputation. I don't see how they never thought to do a quick background check of cards. Takes no time.

Last edited by The Nasty Nati; 11-28-2018 at 07:00 PM.
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  #140  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:18 PM
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Thoughts on this one? This whole story is just crazy!

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  #141  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati View Post
Nevermind I made a mistake with that Marquard post.
Damn...had a great joke teed up and everything.

Last edited by t206kid; 11-28-2018 at 06:20 PM.
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  #142  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati View Post
Nevermind I made a mistake with that Marquard post.
Yep, same card, and same ugly slanted black marker signature.

I'm running out of space on the thread title to add more names. This is the 9th, and the Cicotte is possibly the 10th.
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  #143  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t206kid View Post
Looks like the same buyer also bought a Shaw, Murray, and a Crawford in the same transaction with Scott. UGH.
Always wondered why we dont see any attempts to forge a Shaw - he died in the 1970s and has six letters in his name! Wonder if it got rejected.

The Murray is highly relevant to me as I have one of those signed which I bought in Hunt (shown above).
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  #144  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
Always wondered why we dont see any attempts to forge a Shaw - he died in the 1970s and has six letters in his name! Wonder if it got rejected.

The Murray is highly relevant to me as I have one of those signed which I bought in Hunt (shown above).
The TPA's should know the name and location of this forger.

We hereby demand that they release his name so that he may be tarred and feathered on the public square for all to see.
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  #145  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:35 PM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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This was in the Heritage Dec 2016 Auction. How the hell was this authenticated? Forgery or not, this doesn't look anything like Marquard's signature. Not even his supposed wife's signature.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/s...umbnail-071515
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  #146  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:36 PM
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Truly stunning, both for the breadth of the forgeries and the impact on the hobby, but also stunningly awesome the research and evidence you guys are piling up.

Frankly, if I had an auction house, I would be in touch with you guys to see if you'd want a job.
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  #147  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
The TPA's should know the name and location of this forger.

We hereby demand that they release his name so that he may be tarred and feathered on the public square for all to see.
A lot more has to happen to this forger, a lot more.
Great work here guys.
Manny, I sent you a PM.
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  #148  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:44 PM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsalem View Post
Thoughts on this one? This whole story is just crazy!

Your Flick is unfortunately probably this one. Hard to tell though since it's blurry.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-psa-136547898

Notice that both have the one spec missing in the grass in the right. And you can even see the sliver of white missing in border in the top left. And the centering looks the same. Do you have a picture of the back?

Edit: Looks like you may be in the clear. I think I found the same card but with a clearer picture. I think the corners on your card are sharper and your centering top to bottom is a little different
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...mont-486696958
Attached Images
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Last edited by The Nasty Nati; 11-28-2018 at 06:55 PM.
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  #149  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:51 PM
tsalem's Avatar
tsalem tsalem is offline
Tom S@lem
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Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati View Post
Your Flick is unfortunately probably this one. Hard to tell though since it's blurry.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-psa-136547898

Notice that both have the one spec missing in the grass in the right. And you can even see the sliver of white missing in border in the top left. And the centering looks the same. Do you have a picture of the back?
Card is in safety box. But the card you posted on Worthpoint looks to have more border on top
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  #150  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:57 PM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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Originally Posted by tsalem View Post
Card is in safety box. But the card you posted on Worthpoint looks to have more border on top
Yeah I agree.
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