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  #1  
Old 02-01-2005, 11:45 AM
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Default Possible Heitman Errors

Posted By: scot reader


Heitman's "T206 The Monster" checklist indicates that the following fronts can be found with a 150 or a 350 back. Can anybody confirm any of these with a 350 back?

Ames (Hands at Chest)
Dahlen (Boston)
Doyle (Throwing)
Ewing
Ganley
Karger
Keeler (Portrait)

Heitman's checklist also indicates that the following fronts can be found with a 350 or 460 back. Can anybody confirm any of these with a 350 back?

Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves)
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Overall (Hands at Waist)
Schaefer (Washington)
Tannehill (Chicago "Tannehill" on Front)

Thanks.
Tinker (Bat on Shoulder)

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  #2  
Old 02-01-2005, 02:14 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

He gets an error because YOU haven't found the
corresponding Back???
Come on, give us a break.

Heitman, Lipset and a few other diehard collectors/researchers went through more T's in a month than most current brain pickers in a year.

They collected - traded - exchanged cards through the mail for observation by the other - researched and checklisted what they had observed - did not make it a point to to prove each other wrong, but passed the info on to anyone that was interested.

Heitman made an error???

I don't mind brain picking by someone that wants to learn, but before anyone starts making statements about someone that has talked the talk, after walking the walk - I recommend a little walking first.

Due to the desire of peer recognition on this
board, I've noticed a Salem Witch Hunt overkill
lately.

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  #3  
Old 02-01-2005, 05:29 PM
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Posted By: scot reader


I'm sorry you're not interested in helping me understand the T206 set better.

I hope others on this board will be more receptive to the idea.

I hope it felt good to vent.

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  #4  
Old 02-01-2005, 05:48 PM
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Default Possible Heitman Errors

Posted By: Brian Weisner


Hi Joe,
I think your missing Scot's point. He is not trying to trash Heitman or his work, simply trying to expound on it. We know Heitman's Monster isn't perfect and there are some error's, but It is by far the best published research on the T206 set. The patterns Heitman identified make a lot of sense, but they are not perfect, and Scot is spending time trying to verify, correct and improve on Heitman's amazing work. There are quite a few "veteran collectors" helping Scot in his endevors, as many of us have been tracking T206 backs for quite sometime already have the data available. Please don't jump to conclusions, this is a positive thing, not a negative.

Be well Brian

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  #5  
Old 02-01-2005, 07:02 PM
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Default Possible Heitman Errors

Posted By: Joe P.

scot reader:
"Possible Heitman Errors"
*
*
Pray tell.
What does the above statement have to do with
finding the connecting 350's to Heitman's 150's.

Talk About Negativity.

Mr, scot reader, show me the positivity in your
statement of:

"Possible Heitman Errors"


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  #6  
Old 02-01-2005, 08:09 PM
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Posted By: J Levine

There was nothing in Scot's post that I found negative. I am glad he is continuing the research that Heitman and Lipset had started. I absolutely respect both Heitman and Lipset but both are human and not gods and should be able to make mistakes. I make mistakes, you make mistakes, we all do. Part of the hobby is gaining knowledge and building upon what we others have started.

My specialty is T-205s and I recently asked for a copy of a Trader Speaks article Heitman authored on the T-205s...guess what, there were many errors in the article incl. his omission of Hindu backs, his inclusion of Sweet Cap. red fact. 25 (don't exist), and his two different colors of Soverign backs (I firmly believe it is just ink difference, not a true color variant). He also leaves out many variations that we recognize today.

Does that mean I am trashing the article (and Bill)...of course not, it is one of the only articles I have seen that actually states that the issue may be 1911 AND 1912. It also talks about scarcity and some of the variations toughness.

I applaud Scot for taking the hobby pioneers and working to better our knowledge.

-Joshua

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  #7  
Old 02-01-2005, 08:33 PM
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Posted By: JimB

I have to agree Joe, that I think you missed the point of Scot's attempt at furthering our knowledge of T206 production. Building on earlier knowledge and correcting past mistakes makes us better historians. I don't see what there is to get upset about.

As for your question Scot, I went through my set and found that for every card you mentioned (I have copies of all of them), I did not have a 350 series back. They were either 150s or 350-460s/ Polar Bear "Assorted" as indicated by your layout. Thanks for what you are doing.
JimB

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  #8  
Old 02-01-2005, 08:34 PM
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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Wow, we are all really touchy today aren't we. I'm not sure why people on ths board gets so defensive sometimes. Somebody comes on here asking VERY legit questions, and we yell at him because he dared to say something against one of the hobby giants. Everyone needs to take a step back, count to 10, and then help out our fellow collectors. I'm not trying to single anyone out, it happens here all the time. Just my 2-cents
-Rhett

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  #9  
Old 02-01-2005, 10:14 PM
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Posted By: Robert

None of those fronts carry a 350 back in my house.
robert a

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  #10  
Old 02-02-2005, 02:03 AM
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Posted By: Elliot

I have Ganley and Latham with a 350 back.

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  #11  
Old 02-02-2005, 04:35 AM
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Posted By: Joe P.

First of all, I can see what scot reader is attempting to do, and I commend him for it.
I'm for anyone that adds information to the already existing information.

Of the two T206 sets that have found a warm home:
Of the cards that you have listed, none have the "350" back.

For Joshua L:
From the T205 set that's only missing the Hoby no
stats back.
I didn't find a red Sweet Cap factory 25 back.

Having said that, I want to bring to scot's attention, another recent thread, interestingly enough about T206's "150 - 350" series.
The title: "Prices Realized On One T206"
I'll bump it for those that might be interested in checking it out.
In it I mentioned where I own a 150/350 card in question.

Now for the ground rules according to scot.
Correct me if I am not understanding the title.

As far as Bill Heitman's research into the 150/350 series, if any of us don't have any of the corresponding 350 to 150 series, we can assume that Heitman made possible error.

Having found a 350 Schulte, does that give Bill
one less possible error?
His listing for that card was right.

Whatever happened to, "Innocent until proven guilty?"

What some of you seem to forget is that most of the research was done well before the Internet became the rage.
Before grading and the sports stock market came into play.
During that time they barely knew about red Hindu's, no less the Doyle error.
If you call that a possible Heitman, or Lew Lipset error because they hadn't listed it, maybe it's because nobody else knew about them either.

The breed of collectors/researchers that I'm talking about, were from another time.
A time where they would sell, trade, exchange info and even send multi/multi cards through the mail for inspection to help with each others research.
Their interest was in adding, and not subtracting.
Whether it was meant to, (and I don't think that it was) or not.

The title, and the ground rules are a form of subtraction.

Now Let's Go Find Those Elusive 350's.

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  #12  
Old 02-02-2005, 07:28 AM
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Posted By: Peter Thomas

T206's I have not found any of the cards listed with 350 backs

T205's Like Joe P, I do not have any SC red factory 25 backs, although I have 4 SC black factory 25 backs out of 148 cards.

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  #13  
Old 02-02-2005, 10:20 AM
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Posted By: J Levine

Don't bother looking for these, they do not exist...it was an assumption by early collectors...red sweet cap fact. 25 backs in t-205 were not printed. just clearing things up.

-Joshua

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  #14  
Old 02-02-2005, 02:22 PM
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Posted By: tbob

The red Sweet Cap #25 in the T205 set is a myth, much like the blue "D" on the hat Davis in the T207 set.

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  #15  
Old 02-02-2005, 02:54 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

What is this world coming to?

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  #16  
Old 02-02-2005, 05:05 PM
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Posted By: Anonymous


Thanks for all who have responded to this post so far, especially those who took time out to check their T206 backs. Tip of the hat to Elliot, who has helped me scratch two off my list (I wish I had your Ganley and Latham 350s!), and special thanks to Brian, who has helped me immensely with this project outside this forum.

Heitman is a giant of the hobby. Error-checking his work is my tribute to him. I wouldn't bother error-checking a work that I didn't respect.

The fact is there are some known errors and oversights in "The Monster"--not many, but some. Two of the more notable examples are that it doesn't acknowledge the existence of Piedmont Factory 42 or Red Hindu. And there are, quite understandably, a few clerical and transcription errors in the checklist.

I would be grateful if anybody reading this post would email me upon future discovery of any of the indicated fronts with a 350 back (aside from Ganley and Latham--which, thanks to Elliot, are now safely in the 350 column).

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  #17  
Old 02-02-2005, 06:37 PM
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Posted By: Robert A

Joe P. and others.
I've always appreciated Heitman's and other tobacco maniacs' extensive research on certain issues that I enjoy and I have to say that I've never really thought about the fact that the research in the "old days" was conducted without the assistance of the internet.

Joe...thanks for pointing that fact out.
Scot...thanks for your continued efforts.
robert a.

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  #18  
Old 02-03-2005, 01:09 AM
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Posted By: Joe P.

scot reader:
"Heitman is a giant of the hobby. Error-checking his work is my tribute to him. I wouldn't bother error-checking a work that I didn't respect.

The fact is there are some known errors and oversights in "The Monster"--not many, but some. Two of the more notable examples are that it doesn't acknowledge the existence of Piedmont Factory 42 or Red Hindu. And there are, quite understandably, a few clerical and transcription errors in the checklist."
*
*
From Bill Heitman's T206 The Monster:

"Most Hindu backs are printed in brown and according to the theory contain
only fronts which were issued with the Series 150 cards.
However, recently at least six Hindu backs with a distinct RED rather than brown back printing have been found.
All six fronts correspond to player poses issued only in the 460 series.
Unfortunately, not enough is known about this apparent anomaly to theorize about the Red Printed Backs."

About the Piedmont 350/460 Fact. 42 back:
Also from The Monster:

"The checklist that is the ending to this booklet is one that I have prepared.
It is NOT a checklist of all the known T206 backs.
I prepared the checklist by applying my theories to the set."

Scot and others, you must remember that when Mr. Heitman wrote this in 1979, and had it published in 1980, Internet brain picking wasn't even dreamed of yet.
It was in the late 1980's when I first heard about
the 350/460 42 back, it was not well known due to its scarcity.

scot, I want to thank you for inspiring me to dig up my old beat up Heitman booklet.
Error checking, and fact finding other peoples work can be fun.
BUT look again scot, the errors that you pointed out were yours.
You can look it up.

You can look at what I've said two ways.
1. You can get PO'd at me. .... or-
2. You can strive for credibility to go along with your research.
Why defeat the purpose of your hard earned research
by concentrating on errors that might not be.

I appreciate what you're trying to do.
I just don't want to see you waste it due to an
unnecessary credibility factor.
The choice is yours.

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  #19  
Old 02-03-2005, 11:50 AM
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Posted By: Anonymous


You caught me in an overstatement about Red Hindu--Heitman does acknowledge its existence. He just didn't put it it his checklist due to what he believed was inadequate information to theorize. In hindsight his instinct to refrain from theorizing aobut Red Hindu seems correct--the six examples he was aware of at the time all had fronts that were issued only in the 460 series, and we now know that Red Hindu is also available with fronts first issued in the 350 series and continued into the 460 series.

Good for you.

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  #20  
Old 02-03-2005, 01:13 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

Contrary to popular belief, I'm on your side and pulling for ya.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm amazed with Heitman's work.
Sure, we can all make mistakes, but damn, these guys did the digging and legwork before: "You've Got Mail" and google.

If it's of any help, my three red Hindu's are:
1 Gandil, Chi. Amer.
2 Tannehill, Chi. Amer.

Damn the torpedo's, full speed ahead.
Go find those elusive 350's.

Joe

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  #21  
Old 02-03-2005, 01:27 PM
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Posted By: Robert

joe.
what's your third red hindu? that's two.

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  #22  
Old 02-03-2005, 01:37 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

Make that (2) Tannehill's.

Hamburger hamburger.

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  #23  
Old 02-08-2005, 07:17 PM
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Posted By: William Heitman

This is Bill Heitman. Most, if not all, of the errors referred to were caught within about a year of publication of The Monster. They were all errors made by the publisher that I didn't catch in proofing the book. He also added the Farrah pictures without my knowledge. But, Denny was a great friend, and I let that slide. My original working checklist does not have these "errors". I notified everyone via articles in Trader Speaks of the publishing errors. Incidently, I have probably had in excess of 1,000,000 T206s in my possession. My collection was able to fill about 4800 spots on my working checklist. Also--thanks for the compliments.

Bill

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  #24  
Old 02-08-2005, 08:36 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

Digging.
Drive and Determination.

Your teamwork like positive exchanges with Lew, and other stalwarts of that time and before, made my bullheaded charge into the Monster more enjoyable.

As a geezer, I'm proud of you critters.
You did it before the pussycat easiness of the Internet, and Google came into play.

I'm glad you chimed in.

Muchas gracias amigo,
Joe Pelaez -- (tobacco-r-us)

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Old 02-08-2005, 11:22 PM
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Posted By: Paul

Think of what a massive and successful undertaking the T-206 set must have been for a million of these tiny pieces of paper to have survived for so many decades! And how many chain smokers there must have been!

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  #26  
Old 02-08-2005, 11:27 PM
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Posted By: J Levine

Bill,
Wow! It is always nice when one of the good guys and great researchers of the hobby pops in on our "little" board. You, Lew Lipset, Gar Miller, etc. were great influences on my collecting interests. Thanks again for all you have done and continue to do.

-Joshua

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  #27  
Old 02-08-2005, 11:47 PM
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Posted By: robert a

Thanks Bill Heitman for your efforts.
I appreciate it.

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  #28  
Old 02-09-2005, 02:20 AM
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Posted By: William Heitman

Until late this afternoon, I had kind of thought, because of the direction this hobby has taken of late, that nobody really cared about this stuff anymore. Oh sure, I knew people cared about the grading of cards and the translation of that into instant wealth, but I didn't know there were people still digging.
Before The Monster was published, there were just a handful of people in the country who cared about the various T206 Series and such. It is gratifying to think that there are those of you out there who now care about that. I have to say that most thought I was crazy to even try to collect T206 that way, but what's a guy supposed to do who started doing it that way when he was 9 or 10 years old. After going through so so so many T206s, I just started to see a pattern so I wrote it down in checklist form. My actual checklist has proven very accurate. Of course, in 1979, I didn't know what 1980 to 2005 would bring by way of discovery, but, as far as I know, there has not been any T206s found that do not fall nicely into my theory.
My grandfather actually collected Old Judges as a small boy. He said that as the adults would leave their tobacconist, they would open the packs up and throw the cards on the ground. He told me that he, and numerous other young friends, would spend hours at those spots picking up the cards. My oldest uncle related a similar story of picking up what later became cataloged as T205s, 6s and 7s. The quanitity of cards that have survived from those eras is testimony to the passion this country felt for baseball and baseball players.
Imagine, you're 12 years old and your father tells you that there is a package waiting for you. It was sent to him by an oldtime dealer/collector friend who you have now begun corresponding with. There's a note to your father that says "Let the boy go through them." You open this very large box and there before you are about 7 or 8 15 inch rows of T206. Well, guys, it happened to me. The package was from Wirt Gammon (who I corresponded with until his death many years ago). I never counted those cards, but we can do the math. I know I had packages arrive with at least 2000 T206s in them at least 25 times over the years. And I once did some advertising that netted me 6 finds of over 1000 each. In fact, 1 Wagner in that group.
It was a lot of digging, digging and more digging. And researching the players and matching things up. You're all right. We had no internet, no price guides--but to those of us who were looking, that was our advantage. To those of us who wanted to learn, we just dug and dug and dug and corresponded with older collectors (who almost always were generous to me in so many ways). Keep digging. I'll have more later.

Bill Heitman

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  #29  
Old 02-09-2005, 06:26 AM
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Posted By: Joe P.

Standby T206.

Once you get by the obligatory, "Who's your favorite slabber questions," the questions about the actual cards will come into play.

You'll see some Pick a little - Peck a little - Pick a brain before it's brittle.
That's good, providing the pickers become diggers, and add to the scenario.

Most everyone has something to contribute.
We even have a few Jack of all Trades, and Master of none.
I've seen some card scans that have blown my mind.

Bill Is Good To Have You Aboard.
About 0430 my time, and 0130 Mark Macrae's time, I spotted him on my Buddy List, and I sent him an instant message. ... I told him.
"Check out this thread, and you're going to see a case of the ends justifying the means."

After awhile he came back at me and said:
"Now there is one heck of a pleasant surprise."
I said ditto.
Don't be surprised if he gets in touch with you.
You wont remember me from Adam's, but I got my booklet "T206 The Monster" from you at an early 1980's show in California.
It was during the time that I got to meet the late great Dick Dobbins, and Mark Macrae.

Looking forward to kicking some tobacco questions around with you.

Now, if you could only talk Lew Da Lip into making a few cameo appearances ? .....
I'd be able to book this show into the Palace.

Joe P.

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  #30  
Old 02-10-2005, 12:18 AM
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Posted By: Rob McKenzie

if i see one of those aforementioned with a 350 series back, then i should bid to win..

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  #31  
Old 02-10-2005, 02:46 AM
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Posted By: Joe P.

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Old 02-17-2005, 01:26 PM
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Posted By: Rob McKenzie

Just noting that I recently picked up a T206 Keeler portrait with a sweet caporal 350 back from Kruk cards..



And, there is also a T206 Keeler portait Piedmont 350 in PSA 6 currently on ebay. Regards

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  #33  
Old 02-17-2005, 10:06 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

That T206 PSA 6 350 Keeler, should be of interest to the "Overwhelming 50" crowd.

Great scan, what brand and model do you use?

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  #34  
Old 02-17-2005, 11:01 PM
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Posted By: Rob McKenzie

Hi, Joe, Thanks

The Keeler scan is from the Kruk card website. It was the scan that they used in the ebay auction.

I have a Hewlett Packard HP scanjet 3500c that I got from Best Buy for around $90 a few years ago. It works well for the price.

I'll try to make some example scans from the hp 3500c and load them up this weekend. Regards

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  #35  
Old 02-19-2005, 10:31 PM
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Posted By: Joe P.

I'm sure that there will be more added to that list by others.

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