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  #1  
Old 08-04-2020, 01:27 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Default Looking for Images of T226 Red Suns (Driscoll, Gans, Jeannette and Langford

Hey all,

I've kept scans or photos of difficult T and E cards from the Boxing sets, as I find them (and admittedly without too much diligence over the years). Reviewing the T226 set, I still don't have the images for 4 of the cards, though I'm pretty confident the photo used is the one the T218's are based off of for Driscoll, Jeanette and Langford.

Does anyone have a photo or scan they would be willing to share of these 4 cards, for my purely academic interest?

Jem Driscoll
Joe Gans
Joe Jeanette
Sam Langford
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  #2  
Old 08-04-2020, 04:23 PM
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PM sent
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  #3  
Old 08-04-2020, 04:55 PM
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https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing-car.../a/714-81447.s
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  #4  
Old 08-04-2020, 06:02 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Thank you Gentlemen - have them all now! If anyone has a nicer Langford image than the small part of a group photo from Heritage, I would be grateful. 50 .jpg's will have to suffice as a set for me.

Sure seems like Gans/Jeanette/Johnson/Langford are notably scarcer than the other cards.
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  #5  
Old 08-04-2020, 09:41 PM
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They definitely are, which is weird since cards of these guys are no more scarce than any other card in the other T sets. Were these a Southern-distributed issue? If so, maybe its smokers didn't care for cards of black guys and didn't save them?
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Last edited by Exhibitman; 08-04-2020 at 09:42 PM.
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  #6  
Old 08-06-2020, 01:43 AM
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I think it safe to assume it is a southern issue. The content of the baseball Red Suns heavily implies as such; and the cards are so tough that they certainly were not issued broadly. They must be a regional, presumably southern though I'm not sure factory location is much evidence of where the packs were actually shipped, sold and smoked.

Perhaps distribution was better than we think it was; it's possible cards were somewhat regional in another way, in that certain sets (some brands had multiple at the same time, like Hassan) or individual cards within a brand were targeted to specific buyer demographics. Perhaps the black fighters were targeted to black retail locations that simply happened to constitute less of the brand's purchaser base and vice versa.

I don't think it was a 'direct' racism of customers throwing out cards of black (if this was so, we would see it in other sets, which we do not seem to. Jack Johnson is even the solitary super print in T218 and I suspect T9 as well), or the companies not wanting to issue them (none of the ATC sets are denigrating in the vernacular in use in that actual time, from T118 to T218 to T220 and so on).

I suppose we will never know. I thought it might just be that they are more popular today; and so do not come to market as much, but it really seems to me that these cards are indeed SP's of some kind. Perhaps, also, it is coincidence and there are other SP's of unpopular fighters that we just haven't noticed because there are so few set collectors of T226.

I've found so little about this set over the years that there is little to be said about it beyond a physical description and images of the cards. My type card is a Mike Sullivan.
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  #7  
Old 08-06-2020, 09:07 AM
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I've tinkered with T226 for about a decade and think there are certainly other SP's though not an abundance of any. Maybe I've seen Cross, Murphy and Sullivan more which could be completely coincidental. I always assumed that they were distributed along with T211 but that would have to be verified. If they were then they seem to be primarily if not exclusively distributed in the South. However, if this is truly the pack then they could have distributed in other regions. I've not seen Jeannette or Langford that I'm aware of. Bull West another I think might be more of an SP. According to Boxrec.com there's no Bull West mentioned so I'm not sure if he's a Bill, or other name from that era which is a short list. No appearance of any super prints.
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File Type: jpg Red Sun.jpg (8.6 KB, 66 views)
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  #8  
Old 08-06-2020, 02:39 PM
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Bull West is Billy West - it's the same image of Billy used on his T218.

EDIT: Disclaimer that this is not my card, just a scan I saved from somewhere for research
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File Type: jpg 47 Bull West (Billy).jpg (53.4 KB, 64 views)

Last edited by G1911; 08-06-2020 at 02:40 PM.
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  #9  
Old 08-06-2020, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Bull West is Billy West - it's the same image of Billy used on his T218.

EDIT: Disclaimer that this is not my card, just a scan I saved from somewhere for research
Well that was easy. Any thoughts on West being any tougher than the others?
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  #10  
Old 08-06-2020, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao_Moko View Post
Well that was easy. Any thoughts on West being any tougher than the others?
I think I've only seen three West's? The Sullivans using a different crop of the same/almost the same photo makes them appear extra common. Gannon, Brown, Baldwin, Battling Nelson, Harry Stone may be less common. The cards are all so tough that it may be random chance giving this appearance though, and I'm sure others will differ here.

The baseball series was probably printed before mid-1910, as it is missing players from the Chattanooga club that played their first season in 1910. All other teams in the Southern Association are represented. The boxing series could be before or after that date. I would guess both are late 1909 or early 1910 issues, presumably one was issued and then the other instead of being concurrent, based on the series labelling. The baseball cards exist in greater numbers, I think.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:37 PM
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The boxing set is a 1910 issue. The Jeffries image:



is based on a post-training portrait of Jeff ca. June 1910.

The boxing cards have definite levels of scarcity. The four black fighters are rare, whether short printed or not saved is impossible to say, but anyone I know who has assembled the set has had those as the roughest to find.

I don't know the baseball set (i know of it but don't follow it) so I don't know how tough the boxing issue is in comparison. My purely unscientific observation is that the issue is scarce: you can find a type card pretty readily but finding a specific fighter may be a challenge and the black guys are very, very hard to find at all.
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2020, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
The boxing set is a 1910 issue. The Jeffries image:



is based on a post-training portrait of Jeff ca. June 1910.

The boxing cards have definite levels of scarcity. The four black fighters are rare, whether short printed or not saved is impossible to say, but anyone I know who has assembled the set has had those as the roughest to find.

I don't know the baseball set (i know of it but don't follow it) so I don't know how tough the boxing issue is in comparison. My purely unscientific observation is that the issue is scarce: you can find a type card pretty readily but finding a specific fighter may be a challenge and the black guys are very, very hard to find at all.
Thanks for this, that would strongly suggest the baseball set was issued first then, if the boxing must be a late 1910 or later issue.

The Baseball set of 75 does not appear to have SP cards within it, as far as I have seen. The players who appeared in T206 are more commonly collected, but I donít think exist in lesser quantity.

The boxing cards seem to be in abnormally great condition. The % of examples that appear to be in VG/EX-Mint seems, unscientifically, to be unusually high from what comes to market. Thereís quite a few slabbed 6+ examples for a southern (Louisiana?) regional from 1910. Makes me wonder if many of these came from one source and thatís why some cards are extra difficult?

I donít think it is likely that most of the collectors of this set in c. 1910 were just racists who threw images of blacks away, as this effect is seen in 0 other sports or non-sports sets of the period. If this was the reason, it should be reflected elsewhere and is not.

The reason is probably lost to time, as the evidence suggests it is not this, it is not likely to be the set size (American Lithography was set up to produce sets in multiples of 25, even if we still have a poor understanding of the sheet layouts), etc.

Itís possible the effect is partly, though I suspect not entirely, that cards of black fighters from this period are more popular than cards of similarly talented white fighters today (check the sold prices). Jack Johnsonís 2 cards are the most commonly seen T218, but his rare Tolstoi back very rarely comes to market compared to most of the others. The tougher material of these guys are more collected, and some are Ďstuckí in long term collections, I think.
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  #13  
Old 08-28-2020, 11:21 PM
DDurb DDurb is offline
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Default T226 Jem Driscoll

Hi there,
Having an issue attaching my 2 pictures (front and back) to a reply or email. If you want, send me your email and I'll attach the 2 pictures. PM me.

Danny

Last edited by DDurb; 08-28-2020 at 11:23 PM.
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  #14  
Old 08-29-2020, 05:31 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Quote:
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Hi there,
Having an issue attaching my 2 pictures (front and back) to a reply or email. If you want, send me your email and I'll attach the 2 pictures. PM me.

Danny
PM'd! Thank you
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  #15  
Old 08-30-2020, 12:58 PM
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My experience has been that T226 is not a particularly nice condition issue. It has a lot of nice looking low technical grade specimens because of the color borders, though. There have just been a relatively large # of nice ones lately because someone is liquidating.

As for Jack Johnson, he is the Mickey Mantle of the era for collectors. Scarcity doesn't really play a role in his cards, there is just a ton of demand.
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  #16  
Old 08-30-2020, 01:31 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
My experience has been that T226 is not a particularly nice condition issue. It has a lot of nice looking low technical grade specimens because of the color borders, though. There have just been a relatively large # of nice ones lately because someone is liquidating.

As for Jack Johnson, he is the Mickey Mantle of the era for collectors. Scarcity doesn't really play a role in his cards, there is just a ton of demand.
Compare the pop reports between T226 and other Louisiana issues of the period, including T211. Mid grade cards are more common for T226 than similar sets. It is not a perfect data set, but there sure seem to be a higher percentage of nice copies out there than is normal.
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Old 08-30-2020, 02:46 PM
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Population reports only reflect submissions to the services. I am talking about overall cards I've seen, not cards in holders. The slabs may well skew to higher grade in holders for some reason or reasons that are not readily discernible because we don't know the minds of the people deciding whether to submit cards.
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  #18  
Old 08-30-2020, 04:09 PM
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Certainly true; but the only measurable extant sample data seems to reach the same conclusion of what I have noted 'in the wild'.
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